Please help - convert to profile with Adorama printer profile

[soon_wong]

My first attempt at this, so I need someone to tell me if I'm doing something

wrong.</p>

<p>I've been following the instructions on drycreekphoto.com to prepare some

shots for printing at Adorama using their "Lustre" paper profile.<p>

<a href="http://www.drycreekphoto.com/icc/using_printer_profiles.htm"

target="_blank" title="Click to open link in a new browser

window">http://www.drycreekphoto.com/icc/using_printer_profiles.htm</a> <br>

<br>

<p>At all stages of the process using Photohop CS2, e.g. proof using printer

profile, convert to profile, yada yada yada, the images look okay, until the

final stage of saving the JPG with no ICC profile embedded (as per

drycreekphoto).</p>

<p>

The colors of the un-tagged JPG look completely off. My question is: <br>

<br>

Is this normal? <br>

<br>

I don't want to send my prints off and have them come back completely ruined.

<br>

 

I called Adorama and explain my problem to the person I spoke to. She told me

not to send my images in as sRGB. She said she's not familiar with

the "Convert to profile" function and that the ICC printer profiles are only

for soft-proofing. She advised me to to run "Convert to Profile". Now I'm

really confused. What she said runs counter to what I've read elsewhere about

what to do with printer profiles. So who's right? Please help!

<p>

<br>

<p>As you can (hopefully) see from the screenshots of an example below, the

difference in colors are pretty evident.

<p>

Before the "Save As" <br>

 

<a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img

src="http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k148/wongste/beforesave.jpg" border="0"

alt="Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket"></a>

<br>

After the "save as" with no profile embedded.

<br>

<a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img

src="http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k148/wongste/aftersave.jpg" border="0"

alt="Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket"></a>

[benny_spinoza]

I use LightZone when sending my prints to Adorama, but I suspect it basically is the same as Photoshop as far as converting a file. I simply convert my image to a jpg using Relative Colorimetric with BPC, with the icc profile attached.

 

By the way, I recommend their metallic paper. Last time I checked, they do not have the icc profile on their website. I called Adoramapix up, and the manager sent me the icc profile. What I like about Adorama is that you can print what they call "letterbox", i.e., the entire image without cropping. Their prices and quality are also excellent.

[benny_spinoza]

Sorry about the attached icc profile. I thought it would be possible to right click and do a save target as, so that others could use the profile. But that doesn't seem to work. Oh well...I tried.

[soon_wong]

Correction - the person I spoke to at Adorama told me to send images in only as sRGB, and not to convert to profile or embed any printer profiles.

[benny_spinoza]

Yes, that is correct, they are in sRGB space. But I also embedd the printer profile. That is also O.K., because it is just stripped off anyway.

[roger_smith4]

If the profile you have is still current and you're sure they will print on the same machine then go ahead and follow DryCreek's instructions. You want to convert to the printer profile and don't need to embed any profile (printer will ignore it).

 

The ignorant lab tech advice is usually just convert to SRGB. It's okay but won't give you the control over color and the full printer gamut than having a profile will.

 

Try a shot or two to start and see if it looks okay. You could even do one both ways and see if there's a difference.

[Bill C]

>> What she said runs counter to what I've read elsewhere about what to do with printer profiles. So who's right? <<

 

Hello Soon. I would do as the person at Adorama said, that is, send the images as sRGB.

 

I can't say for sure who's right in this situation, but I can explain what's going on. What you apparently did was to properly prepare your files to be loaded directly into Adorama's printing device WITH NO FURTHER COLOR MANAGEMENT to be used. The question now is, "can you get Adorama to turn off their color management for your order?" I sort of doubt that you can get them to do so; consequently I think your work would print badly.

 

In order to use color profiles on their printer, they NEED an input profile; it sounds to me like they automatically assume the image is sRGB, probably because most of their work is that way. If so, they would use an sRGB input profile; it's a sensible thing for them to do if they are trying to appeal to the general public with low prices.

 

>>"The colors of the un-tagged JPG look completely off. My question is:

 

Is this normal? " <<

 

Yes, this is normal. Remember, you are looking at a file which was specially prepared to print; it was not prepared for further viewing, only to be dropped directly onto a printer. So the visual appearance varies with the printer's requirements. Actually you DO have a way to look at it differently. If you load it (the printer-ready image) back into Photoshop, it should look odd. However, if you then ASSIGN the printer profile to it, this should magically make it look good again. This will not actually change the image file, it only changes how Photoshop makes it appear on the screen.

 

I agree with Roger on one point; that is, have one or two shots printed first to make sure all is going ok.

[benny_spinoza]

You can check Adorama's option "no color management". That's what I do, and I get a perfect match with what the image looks like on my monitor when soft-proofing. Softproof with their icc profile, with a rendering intent of relative colorimetric with BPC. It DOES NOT matter whether you embedd the printer icc profile or not when converting your image to a jpeg.

[Bill C]

>> You can check Adorama's option "no color management". <<

 

Thanks for the info benny. This is the part that makes all the difference and should allow the already converted image files to be properly printed.

[soon_wong]

Thank you to everyone who responded. I think I feel more assured now. I'm still learning a lot of this stuff but I think I'm getting closer to understanding how the printer profile works.

 

Could someone confirm if I'm understanding it correctly:

 

Assuming that my screen is nicely calibrated and that the no color management option is available.

 

1) If I open an sRGB jpg file that came straight from the camera, then soft-proof it with a printer profile - what I see on screen should be how the print will look if I fed the printer the original sRGB file specifying the option to turn off color management?

 

2) On the other hand, I take the original sRGB JPG, convert to profile using the printer profile, and save the file. I then feed the converted JPG into the printer with color management turned off, should the print look like how the original JPG looked on my screen?

 

Please correct any errors in my understanding. Thanks.

[soon_wong]

BillC wrote:

 

>>If you load it (the printer-ready image) back into Photoshop, it should look odd. However, if you then ASSIGN the printer profile to it, this should magically make it look good again.<<

 

Yes, I tried that and what you describe is exactly what happened.

 

The printer-ready image with the printer profile assigned looks identical to the original sRGB image with the printer profile soft-proof turned on, even though you can tell from the histogram that the values in the two files are different.

[benny_spinoza]

I'm a little confused about your 1) and 2). What do you mean by the "original" file. Because you are apparently starting with a jpg file, I don't think the term "conversion" applies, at least not in the sense that you are changing the format of the original jpeg file (the software does a conversion to its internal working color space, and then back again to the jpeg file format, so in a sense, there is always somekind of conversion going on). Anyway, when you "save" your image, you are saving it after you have processed it using your softproofing software (photoshop). When you upload it to Adoramapix, and check no color correction, their printer simply prints out the file. I believe that when you save your image with Adorama's icc profile, it is automatically in the RGB color space.

 

Check out lightcrafts.com. They have a "lite" version of their software which doesn't cost much. It is so easy to use. You can open jpeg files, do some simple contrast adjustments, etc., softproof with any icc profile you want, and then convert (save) back to the jpeg format with the icc profile. It's so simple!

[Bill C]

>> 1) If I open an sRGB jpg file that came straight from the camera, then soft-proof it with a printer profile - what I see on screen should be how the print will look if I fed the printer the original sRGB file specifying the option to turn off color management? <<

 

No, this is not correct. Since you specified "to turn off color management" (at the printing stage), you have no idea how a printer will make the color go. For example, I may have two different printers with different characteristics. One, for example, prints the pixel values 230, 230, 230 as pure white whereas the other printer, same values, might produce a light gray or even a pale color. So the printed result depends largely on the native characteristics of the printer being used.

 

What you SHOULD do in this case is to USE color management for printing, this levels the playing field for printers, so to speak. Two other fine points: First, when you soft proof the camera image, said to be sRGB, you must be sure that Photoshop actually considers it to be sRGB. So make sure that either a) your working space is sRGB when you load the image, or b) specifically ASSIGN an sRGB profile to the image. The second fine point concerns the "rendering intent" being used. When you CONVERT to a profile, a specific rendering intent is used; generally you select either "perceptual" or "relative colorimetric" for photos. It's possible (I'm not sure) that Photoshop might display with a different rendering intent. Additionally, when you send out for printing, it's possible the printing house might use a different rendering intent. Hopefully these effects would be slight; I'm just pointing them out as possible discrepancies.

[soon_wong]

Bill C wrote:

>>No, this is not correct. Since you specified "to turn off color management" (at the printing stage), you have no idea how a printer will make the color go<<

 

Perhaps I used the wrong terminology here. What I meant to say was that I would instruct the lab not to perform any correction on my files when printing.

 

I do realize every printer has different printing characteristics - that's the reason we're here now talking about using printer profiles, right? ;-)

 

Yes, I've set my digital camera to use sRGB and my color space in PS is sRGB.

 

What did you mean when you said in your first post about instructing the lab to print "WITH NO FURTHER COLOR MANAGEMENT"? Did you mean no correction?

 

Here's what drycreekphoto's instructions says:

 

'Instruct the print operators not to apply any of the automated image enhancement or adjustments to your files. Something along the lines of "send the files straight to the printer" usually works. '

 

More specifically:

 

'Noritsu QSS: Digital Media Corrections disabled, DSA/Judgment Image Correction disabled. If you are printing from Compact Flash or other media that is not a CD, make sure the operators disable all the Digital Media Corrections options, not just the "Usual Media" option.'

 

That is what I hope to communicate to Adorama when I send them my printer-ready files.

[Bill C]

>> What did you mean when you said in your first post about instructing the lab to print "WITH NO FURTHER COLOR MANAGEMENT"? Did you mean no correction? <<

 

Well, you also do not want them to do color correction, but what I specifically meant was this: you do NOT want Adormama to receive your image file, assign sRGB to it and convert to the printer profile because you have already done this! So you must be specific to them not to do it again. As benny indicated, you should check their box "no color management". Then everything should work ok.

[Bill C]

I should probably confirm what I mean by "color management". There is a group known as the ICC (International Color Consortium). They are the people who have created the standards for ICC profiles (the color profiles we are talking about). So ICC color management is a complicated thing which is in operation any time a color profile is used. And profiles ARE being used as soon as an sRGB profile is assigned, and a monitor profile is in use, etc. So it is deeper than just printing.

 

"Color correction" is a different thing. Even after printer color management has been used (like sRGB converted to printer profile), it is possible that your original image had some color problems. Adjusting the color somewhat would be considered as color correction.

 

If someone, say a wedding pro, wanted their lab to handle everything, they might set their camera to Adobe RGB (1988), for example, then have their lab do both things: use ICC color management AND make color corrections.

 

In your case, Soon, you have already done both things, ICC color MANAGEMENT by converting, and color CORRECTION by making whatever adjustments you like. So for your case, you do NOT want Adorama to do either of these things.

[Tim_Lookingbill]

If somebody already addressed what I've gathered from reading

Soon Wong's original post within this lengthy thread, I'll just say it

here, again.

 

When you don't embed the profile in an image that you've

previously converted to, then, when viewed untagged in

Photoshop, the Working Space chosen in Color Settings will be

assigned to the image changing the preview but not the

numbers.

 

You use Soft Proof with the printer profile loaded to correct for

any density changes and gamut clipping before converting. Once

you've finished editing convert to the printer profile and just send

to Adorama indicating no corrections or auto adjusts be made.

 

Keeping the printer profile embedded in the final converted

image is for keeping the original preview viewed in Photoshop

so the Working Space chosen in Color Settings won't get

assigned causing strange saturation issues as seen in Wong's

screenshot.

[soon_wong]

Tim, I think you summarized it nicely.

 

Bill C, I think I'm starting to get it now. Color management (convert to profile) is required when printing to digital labs' printers, whether the customer does it or the lab tech, it has to be done at some stage. But you don't want it done twice!

[tony_fletcher]

I sent a few test prints to Adorama and they came back a little dark. They look like prints I make here on HP B9180 printer when Photoshop and the printer both apply color correction.

 

The prints I sent as a test, were:

TIFF

ColorSpace: AdobeRGB 1998

Bit Depth: 8

Resolution 300dpi

 

On the Adorama site I checked the box "perform color correction." That's where I went wrong correct? If the images are arriving at Adorama with the AdobeRGB 1998 color space, and then Adorama applies their profile, I have in a sense "double" corrected these images which could account for the darkness?

 

And, my monitor is properly calibrated via the Gretagmacbeth Eye1.

[soon_wong]

Thanks to everyone who helped. I got my prints back from Adorama and I'm very pleased with the way they turned out. Very close match to the soft proof, if not identical. The metallic paper is very impressive.

[soon_wong]

Tony,

 

I don't know for sure what caused your dark images, but I would try sending them sRGB images. I'm not certain if they handle aRGB. If I were you, I would convert your aRGB images to sRGB in Photoshop.

 

If Adorama expects sRGB images when they perform color management, but the images are in fact aRGB, I imagine your prints would not look like your soft-proofs.

[roger_smith4]

"I don't know for sure what caused your dark images, but I would try sending them sRGB images. I'm not certain if they handle aRGB. If I were you, I would convert your aRGB images to sRGB in Photoshop.

 

If Adorama expects sRGB images when they perform color management, but the images are in fact aRGB, I imagine your prints would not look like your soft-proofs."

 

I don't think any of these labs are going to manually convert profiles. They will ignore whatever the image is tagged with and send the numbers representing your image data directly to their printer. You only have control over what the numbers are and can pre-emptively convert to profile to give them the right numbers that will get you the colors you want on their printer. Embedding the profile only helps you as you view it in Photoshop (so that PS knows how to interpret the numbers) and not them.

 

If for some reason you're shooting in SRGB but then assigning a custom profile I think you're wasting your time. Shoot in a wider color space (AdobeRGB, etc) if you want to really take advantage of your custom profile's ability to clip fewer colors on the way to the printer.

[emre]

I only had time to skim this thread, but my personal experience with Adorama is that using their profile gives worse results than converting to sRGB. I don't know what they are doing...