Marketing Problem in So California. Break through to High End Market.

[denis_zaslavets]

I just read an excellent tread by Anne Ruthmann: <a

href="http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00Jbns">http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00Jbns</a>

<p>

I would like to share my experience and get some advice and feedback.

I am 4 years in wedding photography business, and during this time I raised

prices from 1500 to 2500 for full wedding day coverage without album.

My portfolio is quite good, and pictures were published in multiple wedding

magazines all over the world (I do not pay for ads there).

All my customers are coming through my website. I tried some advertising in

wedding Channel and wedAlert and got 0 result.

I want to diversify my advertising and do not depend on website SEO only - too

risky.

<p>

Everybody suggests to build referral network, since word of mouth is the best

marketing.

I was trying to build referral network with ceremony/reception sites and wedding

coordinators this year. I sent requests to become their referred/preferred

vendor and offered them use of my photos etc.. I got approximately 2-3% response

and 1% agreed to put me into their list. But I get no business for them any way.

People who respond, usually are low end unsuccessful vendors.

What I found is that coordinators or sites I want to work with are not

interested in another photographer at all, doesn't matter how good he is.

I have a big experience in marketing, but here in Southern California it is just

doesn't work - it is just impossible to build referrals without connections.

Competition is too high.

<p>

But I found that 95% of people who tried advertising in Knot or Brides online,

are not happy with results. Is anybody happy with print media? I am considering

Knot, Brides, Los Angeles Weddings, Your Wedding Day , Inside Weddings

magazines. They cost a lot of money, and I am afraid to blow them away without

result.

<p>

I want to break in to High End market, since quality of my work is good enough.

But 99% couples of internet are looking for average or below price. So I will

not get any business from website. This means I need something else. I found

that it is impossible to do without 1 of the following:

<br>

1. A lot of money for expensive magazine advertising and office to create an image.

<br>

2. or just having connections and knowing the right people.

<p>

Does anyone on this forum charges high prices ($5K-10K) ? How did you succeeded?

Please, mention your location, because marketing strategy and results vary from

location to location.

 

<p>

Thanks<br>

Denis

[picturesque]

I certainly am not in that category, but you'd have a better chance of talking to people in that category on the Digital Wedding Forum. Anne Ruthmann herself is active there.

 

As far as breaking into the high end market, you've pretty much listed what I know about it, especially item 2. I also know you have to be very patient and resign yourself to possibly "starving" for a while when you change your prices. It takes a while for the higher level to kick in. Also re item 1--you need to take a look at your personal image and communication skills as well and maybe become a teacher/lecturer yourself. In other words, develop some charisma.

[kellyka]

Hi Denis, Im also located in So Cal, and while I dont charge that much for my photography(5k-10k), I paid that much for my wedding photography and I found her online through an advertising site. As for my own business I have paid for one print ad ( which was over priced and has only gernerated 1 phone call) and the rest of my advertising I do online. I have makeup artists contact me on a regualr basis but they are looking for referals from me (and say they will do the same but when they send out a mass email to tons of photograhers I know I wont see any business) My only advice and what I had decided for myself, is to raise prices slowly each season untill you have comfortable reached the price range you are trying to achieve. If I were a bride and someone were to refer their photographer to me ( and had paid $2500) I would be ok with paying $2800-$3000 if the prices had been raised but I would probably be turned off to find out that they were raised to $5000. (unless it were a year or two later) JMHO! Sorry if it dosnt help much!

[grant g]

I'd say work on this:

 

"2. or just having connections and knowing the right people."

 

I'm in Orange County now after working in Hawaii for a few years. I still think word of mouth referrals are best. Coming into this market cold I needed (and still need) help to break-in. I'm lucky that I found another photographer that I work well with who is essentially getting me more work than I need.

 

I generally think that internet is a waste of time for high-end work as you have noted. Not having a website has definitely cost me a few jobs, but I stress that I like to show my work in print. A canvas and printed albums are much stronger sale closers than a website, IMO. I also like to meet in person. People hire me, and not a website.

 

I don't have an office either, but don't meet high-end clients at St*rbucks or a coffee shop. Be creative with the meeting locations or use your home. I also like to share just a bit of my non-wedding work so they know that I just love photography.

 

Look and *be* high-end. Rich people aren't going to fork over a huge deposit to a schmoe. Some people, no matter how good their photography is, will not command high fees. People in SoCal are pretty superficial...you *need* to look the part.

 

Good luck and I hope that helps you.

[kellyka]

Also do you have a wedding website? On the one site I could find of yours ( Im assuming its you unless someone else has the same name) You only have a few wedding photos. I would post alot more. That is what sold me on my photographer is see here wedding work. It wasnt too elaborate of a website but the wedding work was beautiful and I new that I wanted her! If you have another website that I didnt see just disregard my comments! but you should post a link because I would love to see! The photos I did see were great by the way!

[denis_zaslavets]

Kelly, I am shooting together with my wife. You can see our portfolio at <a href="http://www.photographybyregina.com/portfolio.php">www.photographybyregina.com</a> . I understand that while I start target high end client, I need to add bells and whistles to website, to filter out from portfolio photos shot at obviously low end weddings, present myself differently. This is not a problem. The problem is really how to BREAK IN high end market. "Right people" who are can help with it are not interested in helping another photographer, they already have people they work with.

 

BTW, what is a good place to meet with high end client if i do not have high end designed office?

[kellyka]

I not sure on places to meet maybe Grant wants to share some of his ideas. Right now I meet where its conviniant, Starbucks, hotel lobbys ( If clients have traveled) etc. Next year I hope to have an in house studio where I can meet with clients and have a gallery of large prints,canvas prints and albums along with video screen to showcase work. I think that is more what the "highend client" is looking for. ( and maybe I'll throw in a cappachino machine) but untill then i will just slowly raise my pricing. Your site looks great BTW. I dont know if there is a way to "Break In" Im just trying to "grow in".

[keyotta barber]

Keep in mind that "high-end" does not necessarily mean wealthy. Your target is a bride that places a high priority on photography. That 5K may be 10% or 75% of the wedding budget.

 

-kb

[ericf1]

Denis,

 

Please take this in the spirit in which it is intended. I checked out your web site and it just doesn't project a high-end image, nor does it even suggest that weddings are an area of concentration. In your people images there are only a few wedding shots.

 

I do not shoot weddings, but I am married and went through the process of choosing a photograper. If my only exposure (forgive the pun) was your web site it would not have grabbed my attention, or led me to believe that weddings are your business.

 

This is not a critique of your images, but of the image you project on your web site.

 

Good luck!

[savagesax]

A lot of wedding consultants are out of business or move on to other things and places in just 6 months. To be blunt and honest, and it's not a practice I believe in, but there is a local Hilton, Hyatt and a Ritz Hotel that I really like working at. Perfect gardens. I give the wedding coordinators tips, not $10 or something. Depending on the package up to $500 -1000. Anyway, if you are as good as you say, raise your prices to cover the tips. You will get plenty of busniness at the upper end hotels. Word of caution, before even thinking about talking to them, have a 1 million dollar insurance plan and brag about it. It's getting strick as they will ask you before you shoot a wedding on their grounds.

 

Most photographers refuse to give tips so make appointments at the hotels and bring completed books to leave with them, perhaps a boutique of flowers for her desk. Anything for her to remember you. Remember there are probably 3000 photographers in LA. Takes a lot of work to get to the top, sometimes you have to buy your way there because there is not much difference between a the top 100 wedding photographers. They are all great and some make $20,000 a year some make $20,000 a wedding.

[savagesax]

Rumor has it that a wedding photographer in LA drops $20,000 a month to the coordinator to shoot at the Beverly Hills Hotel. I've shot there 3 times in 20 years. It is a beautiful place. I won't state who the photographer is,because I can't state for sure that this fact is true, but I've met him, he's excellent, loves his 10.5 fish eye and I'm sure he can dish out this kind of money if he gets booked most weekends because his prices start at $10,000! He uses D2X's. LOL, Nikon probably gives the cameras to him too!

[gregstuckeyaus]

I'm not sure whether any photogs who charge up to 20K per wedding are going to hand over the secrets to success. Every B&G who uses me needs to be getting get great value in terms of my talent, my products, what I offer to them as someone who will spend more time with them on their wedding day than anyone else.

 

You say that you get most of your bookings through your site and you need more bells and whistles, why not build from your strengths and improve your site if you think it needs improving. We all need to communicate to our prospective clients the kind of value that we can offer to them. Who knows, people who want to spend more may be landing on your site and moving on because they don't get the impression of a premium product.

When I think of well known Aussie photogs like Yervant, David Williams, Jerry Ghionis, & Marcus Bell, they have all have won awards for their photography. The last two quiet early on in their careers. Their studios have also advertised heavily in bridal publications and provide high quality products and services to their clients. In other words they have developed their product, market visibility, percieved and real prestige value and therefore demand. Paying off a few bell hops may get you there but not because of your photography or through developing a strong business.

There are no guarantees and no shortcuts IMHO. Charge what you think your products and services are worth and communicate that to your clients.

 

I hope this helps

 

Regards

Greg

[fotografz]

There is a threshold of quality and service that is the price of admission ... but it doesn't

get you into the inner circle. There are other "social skill sets" and image projection that

are part and parcel of the trek to wedding stardom and commanding higher prices.

 

Sort of a "white gossamer ceiling" that is not easy to break through, and those that have

sure as hell aren't going to reveal how they did it ... which is often more about their

personality and/or social graces than their work.

 

Wedding photographers that are serious about this would be better off hiring a good PR

firm than placing expensive ads in high-end wedding publications. A well placed article

will get you there more effectively than an ad. Look at Jeff Ascough. Obviously his work

qualifies ... but the Washington Post article that recognized that talent helped catapult him

to stardom. I doubt Jeff solicated that article, but it happened somehow ... it didn't

materalize out of thin air.

[el_fang]

<p>I agree with the comments about your website. The higher end you want to target, the more specific your website needs to be.</p>

<p>But I'm also going to break away from the pack a bit and say that you need to work on the images themselves a bit more before considering anything else. I admire your bravery in showing complete weddings, but this only works if your work is very, very strong. Many of your pictures could be improved by better framing (a lot of distracting elements), better lighting, and better post processing. For now, I would think about grouping pictures from different weddings into sections like "getting ready," "ceremony," "reception" etc to give you the freedom of editing a little tighter. You have 2-3 pictures from each wedding that are strong, and bringing those together will strengthen your portfolio until you reach the level at which an entire wedding is stunning - THEN you can start showing complete weddings.</p>

<p>As for a referral list, most of my success there comes not from cold-calling other vendors, but networking with them when I'm working at a wedding, after the event is over. The breakdown part at the end of the night, when the bride and groom have left, is usually the time when business cards are exchanged with the vendors who are still there. Most often, the wedding coordinator, DJ and/or venue supervisor have observed and liked the way I work, and want me to let them know when the pictures are ready. I follow that up by email a week later with a link to the online gallery, and that's how it begins. If you conduct yourself professionally at a wedding/reception, and produce good work to boot, people WILL remember you. No need to "tip."</p>

[denis_zaslavets]

Bob, we have 1 million dollar insurance.

<p>

Tips are not a problem. The real question is: How to make them to give us first referral?

<p>

What is the best time to tip them? After we got deposit or when we get

full amount?

[denis_zaslavets]

El, we have enough weddings in our price range. If we do networking

with vendors from weddings we shoot, it doesn't help - we just may get

more weddings from same price range. We want to move up and work with

vendors from more expensive weddings. And usually they say: "You have

great photos, but we have to work with you first." or "You have

great photos, but our vendor list is full."

[annealmasy]

If you want to work in a higher price range, you have to HAVE a higher price range. As long

as your median package is $2300, you're not going to book a $10,000 client.

[savagesax]

After the B&G book I call the coordinator and ask if she can meet for lunch. We talk a bit about the wedding, business in general, after lunch then I give her the money, always in cash, in an envelope with a nice thank you card.

[savagesax]

To answer your other question. You have to be creative to get into these places for the first time. Most of the time phone calls don't work at all. Every place is different. You have to remember they get nailed by a phone calls several times a day from photographers. Why should she help you? Somehow you need to get in the door. I can't help you with that part because it has to do with your level of communication or in LA acting skills! Maybe call a PR firm as Marc suggested. Good luck!

[William Michael]

>>> If you want to work in a higher price range, you have to HAVE a higher price range. As long as your median package is $2300, you're not going to book a $10,000 client. <<< (Anne Almasy)

 

Similar to my comment:

 

If one is to charge $10,000 plus per Wedding Session, then one`s business has to be charging $10,000 plus.

 

One must know exactly what business one is in: at $10,000 plus per engagement that business is not taking photographs.

 

WW

[el_fang]

<i>If we do networking with vendors from weddings we shoot, it doesn't help - we just may get more weddings from same price range.</i>

<p>What makes you assume that all the vendors you talk to work the same price range? Different couples have different budgets for different vendors depending on what is more important to them. Also, I often run into vendors who took a particular assignment at a slightly lower rate because the day went unbooked or another couple cancelled.</p>

 

<p><i>And usually they say: "You have great photos, but we have to work with you first."</i></p>

 

<p>See my original response.</p>

 

<p><i>or "You have great photos, but our vendor list is full."</i></p>

 

<p>If it's true, that means someone beat you to the "we have to work with you first" part. But more often than not, this is their polite way of saying "Your pictures aren't good enough." You need to focus on the quality of your work and the self-image you market. The price will follow.</p>

<p>"Tipping" other vendors for referrals is shady at best, corrupt at worst. Put yourself in the shoes of a bride-to-be. If your wedding coordinator recommends a certain photographer or a certain DJ to you, should that recommendation come from an honest opinion from having worked with the recommended vendor before? What would you think if you found out that "tips" were the only reason the recommendation was made? Our clients deserve better. Don't degrade yourself and our profession by engaging in such practices.

[William Michael]

>>> I'm not sure whether any photogs who charge up to 20K per wedding are going to hand over the secrets to success. <<< (Gary Stukey)

 

With respect, I disagree.

 

 

I have been to many seminars in the Photography Industry, and other professions. There are many high end professionals who give lectures and talks and are happy to discuss elements of their success.

 

99% of the audience listens with intent and then goes home and does not change one iota of their daily routine.

 

WW

[William Michael]

>>> But 99% couples of internet are looking for average or below price. So I will not get any business from website. This means I need something else. <<< (original post)

 

Very interesting observation.

 

see:

 

http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00M4HO

 

 

`As you are most likely aware, I am yet to be convinced of the positive cost benefits of (full / only) web site marketing.

 

Full discloser on the website definitely has its place: but IMO limited to businesses slanted heavily to competing on selling price, and in the main attracting such customers.` (op cit)

 

 

>>> I found that it is impossible to do without 1 of the following:

1. A lot of money for expensive magazine advertising and office to create an image.

2. or just having connections and knowing the right people. <<< (original post)

 

 

No, I think that is limited thinking.

 

You however might need `an image` and you might need to connect with some key people, that is the WHAT.

 

But you are too narrow in defining the HOW; which is limiting you in attempting to solve this problem, in my opinion.

 

WW

[annealmasy]

I also have to say that I whole-heartedly disagree with throwing money at vendors. When

you begin operating a pay-for-referrals business, you open a great big can of worms.

 

We refer our clients to other vendors whom we TRUST and RESPECT. They do not kick

back any money to us.

 

Likewise, the vendors who refer to us TRUST and RESPECT us. We do not kick back any

money to them.

 

Depending on the laws in your state, this can be considered a risky practice -- exchanging

money with no written terms or agreement can be viewed as bribery, and sometimes even

lead to price-fixing, depending on how you're using the "tips". From a non-legal

standpoint, clients don't appreciate the implications of kickbacks. It has a very unethical

ring, and if someone is going to spend a lot of money with you, they want to know they

can trust you implicitly.

 

I realize some photographers are making this system work for them. I do not, in any way

agree with it.

 

Also, FWIW, our business was built completely on web marketing. To this day more than

half of our clients find us online. About 20% book us online -- we never meet them until

the wedding day or a much later engagement shoot.

 

These are NOT people with an $800 budget and a backyard wedding. To put in all in

perspective, one of our biggest clients of the year actually came from Photo.net. They're a

young, smart, tech-savvy couple whose first instinct was to go online to look for a

photographer. If I had blown them off with the assumption that anyone looking online

had a little budget, I would be out a nearly $10k job.

 

If you want to move into a high-end market, you literally have to MOVE into a high-end

market.

 

Begin by raising your existing rates. As William and I have both mentioned, you can't run

a $2k business and a $10k business at the same time. Bump of all of your packages by

$500. In six more months, bump them up again by another $500. Keep doing this until

you're where you want to be.

 

You can also subtly increase your rates by not including so much "schtuff" with your

packages. My experience has been that couples with a smaller budget tend to price-shop

and value-compare, so they naturally gravitate toward photographers who include

everything for one low price.

 

Couples with larger budgets are more concerned with the images themselves, and the

experience they will have with you, and how they will be treated throughout the entire

process. They may still wind up getting a lot of "schtuff", but they will be glad to add

those things on A La Carte.

 

There is no trick to achieving high-end clients. You need to have five stars in each of

these categories: quality of photographs, quality of service, quality of product.

 

If you are in any way, shape, or form, EVER an unpleasant person, that's a strike against

you. If your work is inconsistant and uningenious, that's another strike against you. And

if you have a tendency to give up when the challenge is too big, you will not ever achieve

your goals.

 

I would be hard-pressed to say that we have EVER known the "right people". We have

climbed long and hard to get where we are now, and we will continue to climb until we

retire. Not everyone has to do that; some people are born with fantastic connections and

they are a natural shoe-in to the industry. But I believe that this is rare, and that most

successful people have simply carved out a place for themselves with their own hard work

and determination.

[William Michael]

>>> Also, FWIW, our business was built completely on web marketing.<<< (AA)

 

Noted. Thank you for sharing. I am now convinced it can be so.

 

regards

 

WW