Are Toyo film holders better?

[yaakov_asher_sinclair]

How much of a sharpness problem are film holders? I remember reading a thread on this board that showed considerable and significant discrepancies between where the film should have been and where it actually was. Is it worth investing in the more expensive Toyo holders? Are they better that the cheaper riteway etc? I suppose that the ultimate solurion is the Sinar - but that costs more than my camera... and that's only for one of them!

many thanks in advance

[art_karr]

Yaakov:

 

<p>

 

An old site is: <A

HREF="http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~qtluong/photography/lf/hold

ers.html"> Film Holders</A>

 

<p>

 

If you do a google search you find more than you want to know

on ANSI.

 

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Art

[nathan_congdon]

Yaakov:

 

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I can give you half an answer any way. I've used only the Toyo and

Sinar holders in 8 X 10, and can see no perceptible difference in

film sharpness in regular scenes. The Sinars are, as you note,

expensive and also somewhat difficult to load. Static discarge can

be a problem. I've not used Fidelity, etc., at 8 X 10, and just went

straight to the Toyos on the rec of Jeff at Badger Graphic. I like

the feel of them very much. They are very smooth to use and solid-

feeling (certainly more so than the Sinars!) I have lost occasional

shots (rarely) from scenes where the camera is pointed nearly

straight down with conventional holders, and imagine that will not be

a problem with the Sinars (haven't shot any such scenes with them

yet.)

 

<p>

 

My bottom line rec at this pooint would be: the Toyos are great, the

Sinars are probably not worth the $ unless you have very specialized

uses. Loading exposed film in the light, the film does not appear

any flatter in these than in the Toyos. The missing piece I can't

provide you is to answer whether the Toyos are any better than

Fidelity, etc. I have found Jeff at Badger to be uniquely able to

answer these comparison type questions, as he gets the chance to use

just about everything. He's extremely friendly as well. Why don't

you give him a call at 800-558-5350?

 

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Good luck,

 

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Nathan

[sol_campbell]

Nathan,

 

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Are you talking about the Sinar "Adhesive" holders? So you could not

tell any difference. What apertures were you shooting at? That is

important, I guess.

 

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Also you say in light you loaded exposed film. Was this processed

film?

 

<p>

 

Thanks!

[scott walton]

I have used the Fidelty's for years and have never had any problems. I never shoot wide open but have done some at f11 with no loss of edge

sharpness.

[sol_campbell]

Scott,

 

<p>

 

If you shot at f11 I would not be interested in the edge sharpness as

much as the center. That is where the film is most sloppy. What was

the sharpness at the center?

 

<p>

 

Thanks.

[neil_poulsen1]

I use plastic Fidelity 4x5 with most of my shots taken with the rail

level with the ground. I have an Arca-Swiss, so the ground glass with

Frasnel has been optimized for the holder that Arca provides.

 

<p>

 

The best test that I've had was photo's I took of some water colors.

The 150mm Componon-S lens that I used wasn't stopped down that far. I

recall that I took the photos at about f16. Looking at the

transparencies I received back from the lab, I was impressed. I

examined them with a loupe, and they were absolutely tack sharp.

[julio_fernandez]

Yaakob:

The effectiveness of the light trap in any holder being a given, the

next issue is the accuracy and unit to unit consistency of the plane

of focus. Linhof and Sinar have the tightest specs of all, + or -

0.001". I have not tested those. Lisco's I have tested quite a few

units and they came at + or - 0.007" with one unit of 20 at 0.009".

(that involved 20 sides and 15 measurements per side most done twice

for a total of about 500 measurements. Results for Toyo's came at

0.002" to 0.0025". Doing the tests is easy on principle but gets

tricky at the finer points and last decimals. I have always wondered

why people go to great lengths in the search of the sharpest lenses

and expense in their purchase, yet the scrimp on the lowly $30 holder

which can cut off hundreds of dollars of your lens' worth. Today

there seems to be no choice and for me is Toyo, not because they are

the best, but because they are the best affordable ones. One last

point, unless your camera back is calibrated and adjusted so that the

groundglass is on the same plane as the holder, any holder, or even,

lens may not make a difference. There are ISO and ANSI standards for

depth of GG settings but what really matters is the tight agreement

between GG and film plane. Sinar allows 0.0005" for film buckling.

One well known photographer, Joe Englander I read, starts his

workshops by having students check their GG settings. Good idea!

[julio_fernandez]

Correction: Liscos, tested twenty holders and 40 sides. Lots..

[pete_andrews]

I own and use a mixture of Toyo and Fidelity holders. Some of the Toyo

ones are 30 years old and still function perfectly. I can find no

difference in the results from either make, but I prefer the 'feel' of

the Fidelities. They're smoother in operation, and better in build

quality. Still, as I say, the Toyo ones have lasted well too.<br>The

only part of the ANSI standard that's of any significance, as far as I

can see, is the distance that the film should sit from the front face

of the holder. This should be 3/16" (4.75 mm), and it's easy to check

this with a depth-gauge, caliper, or even a decent steel rule.

Graphmatic backs are well wide of the mark, and you either need to

make a small focusing compensation, or adjust your GG if you use them

exclusively.<br>The only film holders that seem to get consistently

bad reviews for film-plane accuracy are ready-loads.<p>I've recently

bought a 2nd hand Linhof holder, and this has a sprung pressure plate

to push the film into proper register and hold it there. It seems like

an excellent design, but trials with a piece of used film in the light

show me that it's the devil to load properly. I haven't used it in

anger yet, so I can't say if the awkward loading pays off in terms of

improved sharpness.

[paul_owen]

Toyo, on the recommendation of Robert White!!!!!

[jerry_stein]

Current 8X10 Toyo film holders have one disadvantage: the lower corners

are sharp. If the holders are stacked and the stack shifts, the corner

of one will pierce the plastic dark slide of an adjacent holder. Best

to keep them in their boxes, but this adds an exta step to an already

complex process of using 8X10. [Possibly the corners could be rounded

off.]

[jean_marie_solichon]

I am currently using both Toyo and Fidelity Elite 4x5 holders. I

never found any discrepancy in sharpness between the two products.

Toyos may be a little bit more accurate as they are a little bit more

difficult to load (thinner sloats?) in my experience. Another point

is Toyos' dark slides are more fragile : I already cracked two from

my newer Toyos when I did'nt crack any of my older and more used

Fidelitys'.