unpaid work

[crisizpix]

Hi all,

I've been a self taught, now studying photographer for a few years

now, and i've assisted a local photographer a couple of times unpaid.

That doesn't worry me too much, but he then wants my images after on disk

in Raw, so he can manipulate them....

Theres another wedding coming up soon and should i ask to be paid for my

images, am i letting my lack of self esteam rule my better judgment?

I feel as though i should be getting paid for my images if nothing else.

what do you guys think?

 

Cheers,

cris

[southjerseyphotos]

Have you seen the shots you have taken?

[picturesque]

What was the original agreement with him? That should have been in writing and should have spelled out the usage of the files. If there was no agreement, then you should ask yourself whether you are learning a lot from this person and whether you are gaining valuable experience from him. Then ask yourself if it is worth it to you to continue to do so in exchange for giving up your files in such a way. If there was an agreement in place, even verbal, it would not be good for you to suddenly change your mind about it, although you have every right to stop doing the free work or ask for payment at any time. All he can say is no, and then you can decide what to do next.

[glenbarrington]

At this point he has no reason to assume you want to get paid. He probably assumes you are satisfied with the arrangement. You need to tell him you want to get paid well BEFORE another wedding comes up.

 

The reason is, frankly, that it gives him time to decide if he wants to pay you or not and make alternate arrangements, if he decides that he does not want to pay you. If you don't give him time to react, he will think, correctly, that you are trying to pressure him during a vulnerable time. Any other apporach will likely create an enemy.

 

You have to be prepared that he may well say no. In which case, you will have to either continue on with the current arrangement or walk.

 

You might want to explain to him that you appreciate the training he has given you, but that you think you are of professional caliber now and want to start shooting professionally including shooting weddings on your own.

 

Explain to him that two professional photograpers can double book a given day and that in exchange for using his business reputation, and business infrastructure you will split the fees with him. Also make sure that this is a temporary situation and after say, a year or two that the both of you would reevaluate the situation.

[stephen dohring]

If he is advertising or booking packages with a second shooter then you should be paid. If he is being nice to let you tag along he might be insulted a little. You should have had the conversation up front before you shot anything.

[david_schilling___chicago_]

If he's giving you training and you're learning from assisting then you could actually be ahead on who's getting any real value from your participation. Interns often work for the experience and supervision. No one on this forum is in a position to actually guage your value to the pro or any extra value that might be added to the weddings that you've participated in. I would suggest that you speak to him directly...if you don't like the arrangement you can always renegotiate, ask for some sort of compensation, or thank him for his time/efforts and move on.

[thomas_hardy1]

Look at it as training. Many professions have a training period where the trainee does a

lot of the work and are paid little, if any. Once you get what YOU want/need out of the

arrangement (professional caliber experience) then take the next step, maybe a paid

assistant for your teacher, a second shooter, on your own......whatever. If it were me I'd

discuss it with him down the road a little.

 

Your teacher will most likely tell you when you've learned all you can from him and are

ready

for the next step.

 

 

That's how real mentor/trainee relationships are. I don't think this is something you really

need to stress over too much.

[thomas_hardy1]

David Shilling is a faster typer than me....but great minds think similarly.

[crisizpix]

Thanks to everyone for your feedback.

I can't say i have a problem at the moment with not getting paid for the day, but to give him my images, i don't feel i have to.

We didn't agree to anything really, i just thought i'd tag along and watch him. Do i need to give him my images...? I think he's using them.

[david_schilling___chicago_]

"i just thought i'd tag along and watch him. Do i need to give him my images...? I think he's using them."

 

Sounds like entitlement issues to me......on your part. Show him this post and see what sort of a reaction you get.

[sean_r2]

Crissi, you don't sound like you have entitlement issues to me. It sounds like you had some sort of ambiguous verbal agreement that needs to be cleared up. An agreement where you give images in exchange for training is fine, as long as you agree to that. I'd say go with your gut and try to clear up your agreement, to make sure your terms. Begin with sometime not so confrontational such as asking how much more training he thinks you need before you can become a true assistant/second shooter for pay, or even handle one on your own. Get the steps figured out and agree to it, and agree to what will happen in the meantime.

 

Just make sure you're not getting ripped off. If he ever mentions anything about payment, make sure you get that in writing. If he says you're great and he'll pay you, and then suddenly starts mocking your work and saying you aren't producing anything of value, that's a huge red flag. That's why you need it in writing.

 

But please, make sure your agreement is more concrete. It feels real bad having a gut feeling you're being ripped off, and then finding out you're right. Trust me, "a friend of mine" had this problem.

[surfidaho]

Whatever you do, DON'T SHOW HIM THIS POST! That will probably be the end of your relationship.

 

In my humble opinion, every second shooter deserves at least ten bucks an hour for time spent on the shoot, and full rights to their images for print portfolio or posting online. Some may object to the "posting online" part, but in todays Internet world I believe it is essential.

 

Are second shooters entitled to cut of the sales from every image they give me? I don't offer this, not because I'm opposed to it in principal, but because it's just too much extra bookwork. I'd rather pay a little more per hour and not worry about it.

 

Many people think that working for free to learn a trade is fine, but usually those are the people who are enjoying the benefits of free labor. I think that any person with self-esteem would refuse to work for free to learn a trade. Even the lowliest plumbers apprentice (the one who carries the plunger) makes a decent hourly wage.

 

Do I make any money off my second shooters images? Heck yeah! Why else would I have them along? (other than the fact that I like them). I always put their initials in the file name on the web page, and I always introduce them to the bride and groom. Credit where credit is due makes for happy workers.

 

Later,

 

Paulsky

[conraderb]

discuss this with him earlier rather than later.

 

I would never NOT pay anyone anything. if they are good, I pay them. if they aren't good, then they don't come with me or I pay them very little (the idea being that they should really pay ME for the training).

 

but I would always pay.

 

based on this - http://www.picmix.com.au/Weddings.jpg - you know what you are doing, but there is a lot of room for improvement.

 

if he is using your images, you certainly should be paid something. if you are providing a service that he is contractually obligated to provide (eg. if you are the 2nd shooter that he promises), you should also get paid something.

 

if you are just 'tagging along', then you should be able to 'tag along' without your camera, and he should have no problem with it.

 

discuss this with his soon.

[fxdonny]

This is probably a "self esteem" issue. Whatever you decide, if you want to get paid (from him) for your images, you should let him know in advance, before you shoot for him, NOT after the fact, after you tag along. That way, there won't me any misunderstanding between you and the photographer.

[crisizpix]

Well, to start with it was a tag'a'long thing, then it was "bring your camera", then it was, "drop me your disk in" and now it's like,

okay, we didn't discuss this...

I don't feel like i'm learning enough from this guy anyway, half the time i'm just a goffer, filling the gaps and getting the pictures he's missing. I think i'll be going it alone after i've finished my course...

Thanks for all your feedback guys,

I think i'll post a few of my wedding pix here and let you pro's pick at them and point me in the right direction.

cheers,

crisi :0)

[msquarephoto]

I don't think many professionals would want or need someone to tag along without sharing the images he/she is gathering. He/she might get in the way, cause confusion for guests as to who he/she is, and use the images he/she gathers from the photographer?s business opportunities for his/her own website without providing anything in return to the photographer. Now, whether or not you should be paid would be a matter of the quality of your work. In business matters (and this is a business matter for the photographer), assuming is never a good thing.

[john_h.1]

"Interns often work for the experience and supervision."

 

David's observation reminds me of a news clip I saw the other day. Internships, designed as school sanctioned real life experience, has taken a life of its own in some instances. Many students (or their parents) have taken to paying to get experience on their resumes. Yes, they are paying thousands of dollars to businesses for the privilege of performing work for the businesses. No school credit either. Wedding photographers were not mentioned but we shouldn't be too surprised if we get a post about it here one day. The reason I mention this is for inspiring you to think about the value you are getting from this experience which, as you now explain, is minimal. If you are to work for free anymore, you should request that you perform activities and obtain guidance that justify free work.

 

As to ownership of pictures you take... You are working for someone else but not as an independent contractor. While you may be working for free (your choice), you boss excercises so much control over your activities that you have no basis to claim the images as yours. Maybe you are not claiming them as yours but you seem to think you are entitled to them morally or something then.

 

Perhaps you can ask for permission to use the images for promotion. Expect some resistance if only due to the fact that model releases will need to be obtained for for that purpose.

 

At this point you should evaluate your worth to the photographer and the value you derive and decide if working for free makes sense anymore. If not, ask for more learning or more compensation. As to the description of the photographer being "vulnerable", pu-lease, the guy is getting free labor. What next, pay him for your 'internship'? Also, showing him this thread will ruin any good will you may derive from this relationship now and in the future.

[david_schilling___chicago_]

One of the last threads that we had here at P-net from an assistant who thought that they deserved more than what the pro was offering blew-up because both sides of the story came out. The pro became aware of the post, read it, and then explained her side of the events. I'd like to be able to reference it but the whole thing was deleted. I'm sure that there are two sides to this situation.

 

If you're considering posting an image from one of these weddings where you were "tagging along" with the pro, I would suggest that you first get the OK to do so from the pro. Unless you've got a release from the B/G to use the images.

[joshranwest]

When I hire second shooters, I always pay them. Pay depends on experience, but they get something. I always let them have the images they took, after I get my copy of them on CD to put with the other wedding pictures for the client. I always let them use the images they took in thier website, etc, limited only by the fact they cannot sell the image to the couple cheaper than I do. All of this is in writing, and we both sign it. Usually my second shooters (and I have about 40 of them who love to second shoot) take pictures during the ceremony and reception. They never want to take formal shots, which is fine. I just wonder why! LOL!

[thomas_hardy1]

Why not sit with him and go over your images...debrief if you will. Take control of your

"training" to get more out of it. If you're diligent and a little aggressive, (watch him,

look at his photos, ask questions, ask questions...and guess what?

 

In my own line of work, we have students who come in and just seem to bide their time to

"get the credit", and move on. Then there are the ones who take a genuine interest, ask

questions are a little aggressive to get all they can out of the experience. They can be a

little annoying but I respect them for taking control of their learning experience.

 

I used to read a lot of magazine articles about up and coming photographers, which lead

me to just stick to my own line of work and forget about seeking payment for shooting

photos. These guys and gals had resumes which included some sort of fine art or graphic

design degree with much of it photography. Many had advanced degrees. They THEN

assisted professionals (some very famous) for a number of years, before getting the

blessing (or not) of the pro and going out on their own. In the (or not) category the

trainee was quite gracious in the details of their leaving...they knew that a lot of people

will be reading that article, and they didn't want to act like barbarians burning bridges on

the way out of town.

 

I'm just trying to stay positive here about getting all you can out of this experience. Me, ? I

would love to tag along with a pro for a time and see my skills hopefully improve. Many

different opinions and I think good advice has been given above.

 

I just hate that you feel you're possibly being taken advantage of.

 

 

Good luck.

[crisizpix]

I don't mind the tagging around bit without pay, i even help the guy out and hold this and that and fix this up...

But when he wants my images, my instinct tells me that this isn't right.

[thomas_hardy1]

If your images mean that much to you quit now. Just say you've changed your mind about the whole deal, or you don't have time or whatever gets you out without feeling "taken", or looking like a total boob.

[john_h.1]

"when he wants my images"

 

They are not your images.

 

If you want them to be yours, you will have to get him to agree in writing that the images. Even if he does, you can not use them to promote yourself without the consent of those who are displayed in the images which is evidenced by them signing a vaild model release al'owing that.

 

If you want to keep images you shoot, accomplish the above or go out on your own.

[crisizpix]

Thanks to all.

your advice is much valued and apreciated.

cheers,

crisi