Dilemma

[joshranwest]

Hello fellow wedding professionals,

 

I have a dilemma. First one of its type in over 11 years. I will make a long

story short.

 

Contract states there are to be no other photographers except me/my assistant.

This jerk starts taking pictures. After repeated attempts to tell him to stop he

doesn't, and gets more aggressive. So I start to pack up and leave (after all

thats in the contract). The BG tell me to stay and apologize. I tell them that

the contract was broken by the guy doing that, and I will stay, but he shall not

take another picture. Well, he didn't.

 

I posted the photos online in 3 days (usually takes a week), they got the proof

book, and CD. Everything is good. I get a phone call today from THE JERK "if you

don't deliver proofs by Wednesday I will be forced to call my lawyer and sue

your ass for non delivery." Well, everything has been delivered, per the

contract, this jerk is waaaay in the wrong. So needless to say my wife/lawyer

contacted this jerk, and said "you broke the contract, we didnt have to stay,

deliver your cd, proof book, OR do your online gallery. Unless you want to be

sued for hundreds of thousands, I suggest you re-read the contract you have broken."

 

To mke matters worse, the BG were are friends of my wife. Ahh, nice. AND we

discounted the package 300 bucks, so we didn't make any money on this deal.

 

So, my question. Has this ever happened to any of you, and what came out of it?

[jan shim]

I am confused. I read and understood this - there's you/your assistant, the Bride and Groom and there's The Jerk. This jerk starts taking photos and you threatened to leave. That part I understand. Then the Jerk called you to demand delivery of photographs you had taken at the wedding. Is the Jerk a member of the B&G's family?

 

"you broke the contract, we didnt have to stay, deliver your cd, proof book, OR do your online gallery..." seems to say you had a contract with The Jerk. What's going on?

[joshranwest]

AHh sorry, I was mad, I will chill and post more details, LOL.

 

It was me, and my assistant/second shooter. She was taking pics, as well as me. We took over 800. This jerk starts taking pictures during the formals, when we were of course, as well as the candids. The contract states that if this happens, that we can pack up and leave. A lot of wedding photographers have that clause in the contract, so I figured why not (way back when I started this in 1996).

 

This guy in question was the grooms step father. The bride is my wife's best friend. Again, we told them that we wont allow this guy to take pictures, but he did anyway, and got more assertive, as far as to change the pose me and my second shooter did!! WOW!

 

So he broke the contract, but we stayed because it was a friend, and shot the rest of the wedding. Should I have left anyway?

 

Ahh frustrating!!!!

[jan shim]

There really is no right or wrong answer to this situation and weddings are a particularly complex and stressful situation for all involved. I live in Asia and over here it's more to do with etiquette more than anything else, and contracts are meaningless. Threatening to sue is not in our 'blood' so to speak so if I were in your shoes having to deal with someone difficult, I would stay cool and handle it differently. Getting upset affects quality of work and ruins what is a great day for the B&G and your bank account.

 

I have completely stopped weddings for different reasons but during the time I was doing them, encountered a different sort of a people problem and elaborated this on my site. Forum rules prohibit links but the article is in the Archives, November 2006.

 

All the best, Joshua.

[joshranwest]

I understand. Everyone is so sue happy! I hate it! I have spent countless hours with my attorney wording my contract to cover myself and the other party. Its almost enough to make one say "forget weddings!"

[hector_obregon]

Does the prohibition in the contract make any real sense in the first place? Lots of folks take pictures at the weddings and receptions I attend. If I were the primary photographer and this began, I would have to honor my contract, and I would quickly be out of business.

 

If the bride signed the contract, I guess you have a case. Look what it has created. After 11 years, perhaps it is time to reconsider. As it is it really is a no-win situation. It would not be practical or worth it for me.

 

Hector Obregon

[sam_ellis]

What's wrong with others taking pictures...especially a friend's wedding? Based on your website, each package includes a cd of all pictures. If you give them the cd and they can have prints made elsewhere, why restrict others from snapping a shot also? I do agree that moving your poses before you are through is unacceptable. My rule is "everyone look at me and let me get my shot, then the others can snap theirs." I couldn't imagine walking out because someone has a point and shoot.

 

You cut your friend a deal and discounted $300 and you "lost money"? Your cheapest package, which doesn't sound like the one they purchased, is $900 and doesn't include any tangible costs (prints or albums). Other than the fact that you didn't book a higher paying gig on that date, you're still up $600. The other packages are more and include proof albums, which I would assume don't cost more than $500, so again, you are still ahead even with a $300 discount.

 

If you only make $300 per wedding, you are doing something wrong. You should be able to offer a friend a discount without breaking even or losing money.

 

Here is a quote from your website, "Don't put up with confusing packages, bossy photographers or high studio prices!" To me, no guests snapping a photo sounds like being a bossy photographer.

 

I'm not being a smarta$$, just pointing out some discrepancies in what you have shared. I realize you're blowing off steam here, but remember that this is a public forum and your friends and her father could very easily find this post in a Google search!

 

There have been many posts about guests taking pictures. I look at it this way- if you tell everyone to put away their cameras, there are a whole lot of people who will tell their friends not to hire the arrogant guy who won't let guests take a picture at the wedding.

 

Just my two cents.

Sam

[bdp]

** This guy in question was the grooms step father **

 

Is it just me, or was that a big thing to be leaving out of telling ones story?

 

If you've been trying to be overly polite and this person was just making it worse for you, other people should be able to see what is going on, and you would be surprised as some will apologize to you for that person's behavior.

 

If it was still just getting worse, that I would've mentioned something the groom... not sure exactly how to word it, but something would need to be done as you/me are no longer able to get the shots we need and are being paid for it.

[joshranwest]

All of you have valid points, and I appreciate the interest! I guess its a touchy subject for letting others snap pics during the formals. I look at it, sometimes, as they are taking money out my pocket because the point and shooter can just go to wally world and get prints done instead of buying them from me. I dunno, its a grey area I suppose.

 

Nothing is wrong with taking the pics during formals I suppose, especially at a friends wedding. But what was wrong, is the fact he demanded prints, and prints were never in the contract. And is threatening all this legal mumbo jumbo. Read the contract before signing.

 

Yeah the fact he moved the subjects after I posed them, kinda did it for me in the end however.

 

The reason we didnt make a profit is because of the excess photos taken, the drive (long way from the house), hotel, gas, etc.

 

I did bring the issue up with the BG while it was happening, they apologized, and he still did the pics, after the apologized. He was persistent.

 

I guess I can take this as a lesson learned, and try to reconsider my approach to this whole point and shoot during the formals issue. Hmmm.

 

Choices choices!

[david_schilling___chicago_]

Excuse me....you got into a confrontation with the groom's stepfather because he was taking photos with a P&S camera? Stopped shooting and threatened to leave?

 

I've got the clause that says that I'm the sole pro-photographer that most all studios have but I never get concerned about family taking their "happy snaps". The last wedding I shot, the groom's stepfather, who is a photographer with his own website took pleanty of happy snaps and even managed to get up behind the officiant behind the altar during the ceremony. And the bride is your wife's best friend :-) Creating a scene like this at a wedding seems to me to be a battle better left unfought and it ended in bad feelings, created more conflict, and then created more bad feelings..... Seems to me that the day is about the B/G, their family and friends. The photography while important shouldn't take away from the joy of the experience.

[joshranwest]

Totally agree David, it should be about the BG's happy day, and these unfortunate events leave a bad taste in the mouths of everyone involved. The scene however, wasnt "bad" at all, I just started to walk away, and was extremely polite, as these were friends. They apologized, and everything was settled, or so I thought until today.

[joshranwest]

I like the term happy snaps by the way lol

[mike dixon]

<i> The scene however, wasnt "bad" at all, I just started to walk away, and was extremely polite, as these were friends.</i><P>

Threatening to leave without taking the photos of their wedding is a bad scene no matter how politely you do it. I've had relatives/close friends start to snap photos during formals before (when they weren't supposed to). Sure, it made things take a little longer, but it didn't waste as much time, or create as much stress, as threatening to leave if they didn't stop.<P>

<i> Unless you want to be sued for hundreds of thousands, I suggest you re-read the contract you have broken."</i><P>

I'm really curious about this. On what grounds should you have been awarded hundreds of thousands of dollars from "the jerk?"

[surfidaho]

I always send out an e-mail to the bride and groom several weeks before the wedding:

 

"Please explain (gently) to all persons present during the formals that I do not allow amateur photography during this time. Please pay particular attention to parents and grandparents, who often feel that they are exempt from this rule. Please reassure them that they can take as many photos as they like at any other time. I like to talk shop with other photographers, and if anybody would like my assistance in getting good shots, I would be happy to help them".

 

Haven't had a problem since I started doing this.

 

Later,

 

Paulsky

[jan shim]

Joshua,

 

I have an idea but I don't know if it's practiced at all where you make your living. I designed my wedding package (yes, only one) to clients it includes a 4R Black 300-pocket Album, JPEGs on CD/DVD and a High Definition DVD Slideshow. I am in the business of providing my clients photographs not fancy album sales or designs and with the post processed images on CD, they can print as much as they want to.

 

Do photographers hang on to the image files, corner the clients into print orders? I find that business model outdated and the amount of time and effort not to mention time wasted dealing with the clients can be better channeled into more productive business ideas. Charge accordingly to this business model for a once-off deal.

[david_schilling___chicago_]

Dealing with the family & guests taking their P&S cameras is just another fact of life and I think the situation will likely get worse before it gets better. BTW, you're a braver man than I, if I had started to walk away from photographing my wife's best friend wedding, I would have been in the dog house for an extended period of time and I'd be sleeping with one eye open for several weeks :-)

[annealmasy]

Honestly, I have to say that I believe you were wrong to make an issue of this. We, too,

have it in our contract that we are to be the sole shooters. BUT. Our primary purpose is

to prevent additional pros from being hired for the same event. If a guest or family

member wants to take photos over our shoulders, they can snap away.

 

By causing a scene, you may have harmed a friendship -- and you've clearly made an

enemy of the groom's step-father.

 

At this point, the best thing you can do is provide the images to your client as quickly as

possible. If you must respond to the step-father, do so in a respectful, professional

manner; do not bring up the issue of the wedding day. Assure him that the images are

being delivered as per your contract with the b&g and leave it at that.

 

If you choose to stick with weddings, you will need to learn to deal with difficult people,

frustrating situations, and even breaches of contract without also creating unnecessary

enemies for yourself.

 

Some situations are beyond your control; I don't believe this was one of those situations.

 

Take heart though. Live and learn. :)

[joshranwest]

Mike - typo, thousands. Not hundreds of thousands. Breach of contract if he wanted to go that far saying I didnt provide a service, etc etc.

 

Paul - great idea! I might have to try that and see what happens. I usually just tell them, but maybe a formal email/note would kinda seal the deal.

 

Jan - valid points, and I have considered this business model as well. Give the client the CD and be done with it. Maybe a CD-Only package or something, is in order to add to my packages.

 

David - I agree, it IS another fact of life, and it happens at every wedding I have done (over a few hundred). Nice pic by the way! LOL about being in the doghouse. My wife helped write the contract as well as our attorney, so she knows every letter in it to the tee. She actually tried to tell him to stop as well. She looked at me and said "take control!" LOL. It was a bold move though, I agree, but he did upset the BG, me, and her.

 

All valid points, thanks again for letting me post this, and get some constructive feedback on this hairy situation.

[joshranwest]

OK here we go, all cleaned up without the rants!

 

Hello fellow wedding professionals,

 

I have a dilemma. First one of its type in over 11 years. I will make a long story short.

 

Contract states there are to be no other photographers except me/my assistant during the formals. The grooms step father starts taking pictures. After repeated attempts to tell him to stop he doesn't, and gets more aggressive. So I start to leave (after all thats in the contract). The BG tell me to stay and they apologize. I tell them that the contract was broken by the guy doing that, but I will stay because they are friends. First mistake? I dont know.

 

I posted the photos online in 3 days (usually takes a week), they got the proof book, and CD. Everything is delivered per the contract. MY WIFE, lol, gets a phone call today from the grooms step father, "if you don't deliver prints by Wednesday I will be forced to call my lawyer and sue your ass for non delivery." Whoa! Prints?? This guy is waaaay in the wrong. So needless to say my wife/lawyer contacted him, and said "YOU broke the contract! We didnt have to stay, deliver your cd, proof book, OR do your online gallery. I suggest you re-read the contract you have broken."

 

To make it worse, the bride is my wife's best friend.

 

So this guy wants prints he was never promised. What would you do? This ever happen to you guys? This is a first in 11 years! Not fun!

[mike dixon]

<i> Mike - typo, thousands. Not hundreds of thousands. Breach of contract if he wanted to go that far saying I didnt provide a service, etc etc.</i><P>

Did you have a contract with the groom's stepfather? <P>

I'm still not clear on this at all. You got paid, you delivered the goods, but a third-party would owe you thousands because he breached the contract by telling you you didn't deliver the goods?<P>

To be honest, I'm having trouble getting my head around the whole situation. I understand the part about the stepfather taking photos when you didn't want him to and you being annoyed by that, but the rest of it strikes me as being highly irrational.<P>

If I had been paid, and the bride and groom were there for me to photograph, I'd be doing my best to do my job. The only reason I'd threaten to walk out is if my assistant or I were being physically threatened or sexually harassed. I don't understand why you'd even get involved in a personal pissing match with the groom's relative.

[mike dixon]

<i> So this guy wants prints he was never promised. What would you do?</i><P>

I'd explain that prints were not part of the wedding package that had been purchased. If I offered prints, I'd give a price list of their cost. If I didn't offer prints, I'd refer him to the people who have the images or files.

[joshranwest]

I tried, to no avail. He is insisting that I offered prints as part of the package and states he is going to his lawyer tomorrow with the contract in hand to "settle this". As my wife told him, re-read the contract. He is way out of line threatening legal action, and has no leg to stand on because the contract clearly states what you get with each package, and nowhere are prints. You get an online photo gallery, photo book, and CD.

 

I agree, its all irrational, and very weird.

[mike dixon]

In that case, there's no dilemma. His lawyer can explain the contract to him. Problem solved.

 

There was no point in threatening him with a (in my view, baseless) countersuit. All that did was prolong the feud, build the stress level, and use up time that you're not getting paid for.

[surfidaho]

Not all of us have the emotional detachment of Mr. Spock.

 

So you lost your temper with an obvious dork. Big deal. It's not as if you're expecting good word of mouth from this guy. And you didn't threaten him with anything except a baseless lawsuit, which is what he did to you anyway, so there's no way he can come after you.

 

Later,

 

Paulsky

[nancy s.]

good grief..

You were their to shoot a wedding for a bride and groom. Their step Father is threatening you? Huh?

 

Who SIGNED the contract? Who Paid the bill? The B&G or the Step Father?

If the SF paid for the photography and signed the contract, he has a beef, tho likely no recourse if you delivered according to contract. If the contract is with the B&G and they signed it, why did you even answer the SF?

 

BTW if someone started to re-arrange my poses I would get a bit aggravated too... LOL

However, I never stopped anyone from taking photos with their P&S Jpeg Cameras.. tho I did work for a fellow who would not allow P&S cameras or video of his formals.

 

I am in full agreement with protecting ones self as the photographer but to get in a Pi$$ing match with the Couple's Step Father probably will do more harm than good. Just my opinion.