Leica Ripoff

[bruce_stephenson]

Hi There,

 

I am still smirking after I purchased a so-called Leica a couple of days ago in

Romania. As the Romanians were German allies during the war, I figured rather

naively that the three Leica's that I saw on sale at the market in town in

Sofia were probably genuine articles. I brought what I assumed to be a Leica

from the war, as it was beautifully engraved with the Reich Eagle on the top of

the camera, along with the Leica logo across the top. The lens cover also had a

nice Reich's Eagle engraved into it, and on the bottom of the body was the

engraved words "Luftwaffen Einentum", which roughly translates as Airforce

Property.

 

Not being a particular camera buff, but liking classic cameras (I still use my

old OM10 regularly, and prefer it over my digital) my scant knowledge on the

subject did at least enlighten me as to the fact that Leica's are of top

quality. Upon getting home I took a detailed look on the net as I marvelled at

how smart and how many years those German designers were ahead of the rest of

the world.

 

This camera just looked years ahead, as I marvelled how much like it looked to

me to be something like you would have seen in the 60's. (No bells ringing yet!)

 

In my attempt to find out more about my "Leica", I quickly found that the

serial number didn?t fit in any of the Leica serial numbers up to 1945, in fact

it didn?t seem to figure any where, so what was it?

 

Looking at things a little deeper, I quickly spotted a camera body that was

exactly as mine was; yep it was a Russian model, the Zorki 4. (Serial number

67946633, so 1967 I guess!)

 

I had to laugh at my ignorance, but hey what else can you do? At least I didn?t

pay an arm and a leg for it, as I wasn?t that desperate to own it.

 

What is amazing is how good the engraving etc is. To the untrained eye it looks

completely convincing, so I guess it always pays to know yer stuff!

 

Guess someone out there can verify that the serial number ties up with a Zorki?

 

Guess it is worth diddly squat, other than the novelty factor?

 

Happy shooting!

[jama]

Bruce, since when Sofia is in Romania? Maybe I'm wrong, but Sofia is(for more then 1300 years) in Bulgaria.

[vivek iyer]

<i>..and on the bottom of the body was the engraved words <b>"Luftwaffen Einentum"</b>..</i>

<p>

If I had seen anything engraved like that, I would have realized it as a fake! :)

[love4leica]

Romania, Sofia - this guy is cocking up a story. The story is as fake as the leica he bought !!!!

[35mmdelux]

what is your question?

 

did you find any Rolexes?

[l._david_tomei1]

Reminds me of a story about the fake Leica I bought in Tepelene, Greece, that turned out to be a rare Albanian rangefinder. ...but I'll save that for another thread.

 

Ciao!

[icuneko]

Hmmm...I always thought "Sofia" the singular form of "Sofa" was in the living room.

[bruce_stephenson]

Jaroslav, thanks for pointing out my obvious brain fart. :) I always subconsciously get the two countries mixed up as my work takes me to both Sofia and Bucharest as well as many dozens of other destinations all over Europe, (many of which we can be in that resective country for as little as 1 hour at a time) so next time I type something out, I had better double check! Sorry to all those that I may have offended in both Bulgaria and Romania, it wasnt intentional.

 

In answer to Afzal Ansary, obviously you are one of your more charitable characters that you could wish to meet, and it is clear that a simple question is a waste of time on this forum.

 

Frankly I dont really care what I have brought, I didnt pay a silly amounts for it and simply look at purchases outside my primary hobbies in terms of what I can afford write off in relation to what I am outlaying in cash.

 

As far as I am concerned, in life there are those whom have been conned, and there are those who are going to be. Its all part of lifes learning curve...I was just curious as to what I had actually brought and rather naively thought that someone could enlighten me?. I will leave you guys, and this forum/site to it, bye bye. Do your worst...

[michael_londarenko]

Bruce,

 

It's not Leica ripoff. Somebody sold you Soviet-made Zorki made to look remotely like a Leica. Naturally you got only yourself to blame - caveat emptor. Counterfeit business, liars and corruption are the reason Eastern Europe doesn't have living standards of Western Europe. Economy can flourish only when things go smooth without undue bureaucratic hardships, bribes to officials, extreme taxation and when a word of a merchant can be trusted and money of a buyer is real.

 

Next time if you see something too good to be true anywhere (be it Internet, Romania or Texas) - don't buy it, or better yet report it to authorities.

[edsel_adams]

These are actually starting to generate collector interest. I think the idea that someone spent so much time and effort in the counterfeiting, they sort of demand respect.

 

 

I have seen many fake US military SLR cameras (Canon,Nikon & Topcon)over the years. The giveaway is the unusually clean condition. Real military gear gets banged about, and will have scars to show.

[sw12dz]

Bruce,

 

Welcome to the Leica and Rangefinder Forum. It's too bad that we have some "feisty boys" here that have a bad habit of driving away newbies. As for me, anything regarding Leica's or rangefinders is "on topic".

 

Hopefully, you didn't pay too much for your Zorki (and you've learned a valuable lesson), and if you got a working one then you've got a fine user. I have several FSU cameras in my collection, and although they cannot ever come close to the build quality or feel of my Leicas, they are still fun to use. Go out and take photos with your recent purchase and have fun.

[mark_ehlers]

Bruce, I would like to echo Stuart's comments and invite you to hang out for awhile on the forum. Just enjoy the new camera. And better yet, share a few photos!

[rj__]

"It's too bad that we have some "feisty boys" here that have a bad habit of driving away newbies."

 

I see that this word "feisty" is also used in the offical forum description.

 

As far as I can figure out, from the couple of months that I have been following this forum, it is a synonym for "jerk".

[l._david_tomei1]

Dear Bruce,

 

I woke this morning and went back to this forum to find that my faith in humanity has been renewed once again. I sincerely hope that you, Bruce, have not given up on this forum. When I first came to Rome and before I was infected with the Leica collecting virus, I saw some beautiful "Leicas" in a shop window on sale for $400 or so. I was thrilled and when I returned to the USA and visited a vintage camera shop in SF I learned that I was a "fool" to beleive that they were worth anything, much less $400, and I was rather humiliated by the comments of those otehr "experts" in the shop. I read this forum and saw that my questions were likely to elicit more such comments so I skipped it and went on the make my errors in private. Well, I like your attitude about the camera in Sofia or Bucharest and your desire to share that experience. If someone claims that they would never have believed that that camera was real, they are being disengenuous and the fun of collecting old cameras is lost in their effort to become conneseurs (I have no idea how to spell that word, I admit).

 

My best regards to this forum and to Bruce especially.

 

David

 

Rome (which is in Italy :))

[Vlad Soare]

"<i>Counterfeit business, liars and corruption are the reason Eastern Europe doesn't have living standards of Western Europe.</i>"

<br><br>

This, and 50 years of communism brought to us with the help of two Western leaders, one of whom was too ill for his position and the other one a drunkard with serious psychological problems. <br>

In the 17 years that have passed since the fall of the communist regime, Romania has become virtually unrecognizable. It may not be on par with Western countries yet, but it's certainly not far from that either.<br>

But this is another story, which has nothing to do with Leica or photography in general. Sorry for digressing. :-)

[andresainderichin]

Hi Bruce,

 

I thought your story was rather funny. And since apparently, you don't feel too sorry for

yourself, why should we? One thing I agree on, though: there are somme pretty lousy

characters on photo.net. I'm regularly appalled at the brusque and uncourteous tone (and I

weigh my words) of some participants. Don't let that deter you: I find this a very useful

place, and have had some darn good advice! Hang on!

 

Take care,

André

[pepe_alonso]

Undoubtfully a fake... there's no "nice Reich's Eagle"

[bruce_stephenson]

I wasnt going to bother any further with this thread as it was clear that it was fast descending into a maybe a well deserved geography lesson! After receiving an email from one of your members urging me to take another look at the thread. Thanks for all the constructive comments.

 

André, you have hit the nail on the head when you say ?And since apparently, you don't feel too sorry for yourself, why should we??

No I dont deserve any sympathy in my lack of basic skills at spotting a fake. Actually I think its quite funny believe it or not as I paid what I was happy to throw away, as yes it seemed to good a price to be true. (For those who want to know, I paid the equivalent of about $80 US bucks for it).

 

As for rarity of ex-military cameras, it wasn?t until I got home and looked at the net to such forums as this that I quickly released just how common these fakes really are! Believe me I am more embarrassed about stuffing up with the wrong country than I ever will about my lack of skills in spotting fake cameras, which are not burning passion. (If it flies then it really gets my attention!).

 

Vlad, in response to your comments, I can completely agree with your comments. At the expense of getting my countries wrong again, I spent several months in Poland back in the mid 1980?s, so experienced the old Soviet style rule first hand in that country. I feel more than privileged to have glimpsed first hand at some of the experiences of the hardships of everyday life that people had to contend with on a daily basis. Most of us westerners couldnt even begin to comprehend how it was in our worlds of excess and instant availability. Believe me you were somebody in Poland back then if you owned a colour TV, or had a telephone!

It is interesting to hear work colleagues comment on how all our western European tax is being poured into all these eastern bloc countries and their rather myopic views on the subject, but as I see it, I think that if we genuinely want to create a better Europe then investment is the only way forward. (I for one am quite happy about contributing another $80 into the local economy, it isn?t like I didn?t get anything in return!).

In this way we eventually create markets that sustain people in those areas and we benefit with people buying our products. It is for this very reason why the company I work for move goods in and out of Sofia on a daily basis.

 

It was my first visit to Sofia Vlad, and I can honestly say that I was very impressed at just how beautiful your city once was, and still is. It obviously is getting much needed investment into its infrastructure, but already it is paying dividends. I spend a hell of a lot of time going to places in the former Eastern bloc, and have a good idea of the comparisons, and Sofia for me ranks alongside my favourite cities such as Budapest (as everyone knows is in Slovakia), Prague (located of course in Silesia) and one of my personal favourite western destinations, Lyon, which as any knowledgeable Frenchman can tell you is in Alsace. I look forward to my next stop over in Sofia next month! (I simply cant wait until we start further east, and I can get to see some of the former Soviet states, and whats more I am getting paid to do so!)

 

In closing, thanks for the nice email David, yes Rome is fantastic as well, only thing is I cant remember just where Italy is these days, can anyone out there give me a clue? ;-)

 

Getting back to my original question, can anyone confirm that the serial number given, it is in fact a Zorki 4?

 

Good point Pepe!

[tom_murray2]

""It's too bad that we have some "feisty boys" here that have a bad habit of driving away newbies."

 

I see that this word "feisty" is also used in the offical forum description.

 

As far as I can figure out, from the couple of months that I have been following this forum, it is a synonym for "jerk"."

 

+1! Thick skin and asbestos suit highly recommended.

[vivek iyer]

<i>If someone claims that they would never have believed that that camera was real, they are being disengenuous and the fun of collecting old cameras is lost in their effort to become conneseurs (I have no idea how to spell that word, I admit).</i>

<p>

Spelling does matter- sometimes- especially when encountering engravings on fake cameras.

<p>

If the engraving on the camera is as it was typed by Bruce, then it clearly is a fake.

<p>

<b>eigentum</b> and <u>not</u> <i>einentum</i>.

[eric rose]

There are several "Zorki" websites out there that will answer your valid question. I bought a Zorki about 6 months ago and I'm having a blast with it. It takes great photos and will accept my Leitz LTM lenses. Not having a meter is no biggy as I usually don't use one anyway.

 

Another nice thing about my Zorki is that if my parking brake ever fails I can use it to block my back tire so my car won't role down the hill LOL.

 

On another note, I frequent several forums and for the most part this one is pretty good, but there seems to be a higher percentage of snots here than elsewhere. Just ignore them.

[jtk]

Romania banned church-authorized slavery (of Gypsies) sometime in the 1800s, long before it was banned in many parts of the world (eg Saudi Arabia).

 

Romania just banned dancing bears, yet Dick Cheney remains legal in the US.

 

http://www.eubusiness.com/Environ/1181970006.56/

[steven_moseley1]

Hiya,

 

As an aside, a partners uncle went to Poland on business in the early 1990's. He stayed in Warsaw and on a day when he had some free time he ventured out into the countryside.

 

He passed some open farm land where all of one field had many cows all grazing in circles. When he looked closer he realised they were all attached via a length of rope to a small stake in the ground. He parked the hire car and got out to photograph this and whilst he did so, a group of four very burly Polish women came out of the nearest farm house and walked across the field.

 

They went up to one of the cows and untied it. Then to his astonishment, each woman grabbed a leg each and they picked up the cow, and proceded to carry it about 20 yards to another part of the field and re-staked it.

 

He learned later that it was common practise. They do this so the cow gets less walking and stays fatter...or maybe the Polish boys just like muscly girls?

 

cheers Steve.

[michael_londarenko]

Vlad,

 

As far as "Western leaders" are concerned it's irrelevant. Each country's people (and their leaders) are responsible for their country's freedom and direction. Once people lose the will to fight for their freedom they become conquered people. That's what happened with most of Eastern Europe during and after World War II.

 

Czechoslovakia and Hungary were the only two countries in the Eastern block that even attempted some sort of uprising against the Soviets. No other Eastern European country attempted that and if you recall partisans had much success fighting Nazis, but apparently there was no will to fight the commies. As far as Romania goes, they had their own version of Stalin - Chaushesku. That makes it a bit hard, since totalitarian regimes are unfortunately very effective at suppressing their own people.

 

Incidentally most of Western Europe today is leaning towards dictator-appeasement ideas again. More than half of Europe is pretty much Socialist today. Italy has an actual Communist government!

 

The biggest threat to freedom of people in any given country doesn't come from some leaders of another country. It usually comes from within their own government - like government-driven "disarmament" schemes were they confiscate weapons from law-abiding citizens masquerading it as a "crime fighting" plan. Crime never goes down since obviously criminals never give up guns (that they have illegally to begin with), but it makes it so much easier for any given government to shove anything down the throat of their citizenry. And all that with smiles, posing for cameras and patting on the back of all involved...

 

Imagine how tables would have turned on Soviets if every single person in Eastern Europe had a gun! Heck, even Nazi Germany would not have been possible if not for the "gun control" laws of the Weimar Republic!

 

Heck, why go that far. Let's look at Hurricane Katrina. New Orleans authorities apparently saw it fit to disarm grandmas with old colt revolvers while armed gangs were roaming the streets with AR-15s!

 

Once the people lose the will to fight they become conquered people.

[fred_obturateur]

I'd NEVER buy any Leica with Third Reich engravings myself (personal policy of mine). "Lutwaffe eagle" or "army green" items are "not collectible" in my book...