Effectiveness of K10D shake reduction

[simon_hickie1]

I've queried this before, but do not recall much user feedback, so here goes again!

 

I'm thinking of bailing out of Nikon (!) having had a torrid time trying to get

my D80 to work properly with the 18-200VR lens, plus matrix metering 'oddities'

(a pity because it's an otherwise excellent camera).

 

How effective do you K10D users find the in-camera shake reduction in terms of

shutter speeds at different focal lengths? The reason I am asking is that I have

a health condition that means I generally need to travel as light as possible

plus my medication can increase the likelihood of camera shake anyway. I'm not

averse to using a monopod (reliably gets me 1.5 to 2 stops improvement), but

would like to reliably get an extra 1 to 2 stops improvement over this. The

reviews I see mention anything from 'a small improvement in low light

situations' to 'the best of the in-camera systems'.

 

Thanks in advance.

[thebs]

<p>Everything I've read says that the SR in the K100D/K10D on their own gives you a good 1.5-2 stops, although not quite the 2-3 stops Pentax (among other free-floating CCD product vendors) claim. Now with a monopod, 3 stops overall might be the result, and I'd personally like to see some comments (let alone an analytical review) on that as well. Pentax recommends you leave SR on while using a monopod (off, of course, for a tripod), so maybe that's where they get the 3 stops marketing -- a "best case."</p>

 

<p>In moderate light like a moderate overcast, I can honestly say I can fire off shots with my K100D, while free-standing without bracing myself, at the full long 200mm of my DA 50-200mm -- and I'm not a steady person at all! I've done it at shutters down to even sub-1/100th or so with SR on, bracing myself against a railing (but still clearly not steady like a tripod, or even a monopod). If I'm over 1/200th, I don't think I've ever seen a blur, period. It just works -- even free-standing, no bracing.</p>

<p>During Fleet Week in New York, I took several shots free-standing, while bracing myself, inside of the LHD USS Wasp. I was at 1/30th and 1/15th and other, clearly slow shutter speeds, with just the kit DA 18-55mm "kit" lens at 18-24mm. I didn't have blur in most of them -- except, of course, blurs of any people moving in the shot -- which made it look like I had it on tripod (in some elapsed exposure scene). I don't know what that tells you, but I'm more than statisifed.</p>

<p>I.e., I came from Point'n Shoot "image stabilized" 1/1.8" and 1/2.5" CCDs -- such as those in the Panasonic DMC series. Putting the image quality aside (no contest), the blur is far, far reduced in my K100D -- especially at those slower shutters, but even when there's more light (and the Point'n Shoots can, allegedly, "better compete"). Now I sure wish I could give you more experience from your clearly far more pro-level -- since you have a D80, you're already at a much more serious product than I. Then again, even my fellow engineers with Canon and Nikon products -- several with $500 image stabilized lenses -- are pretty damn impressed. Especially with the low-light shots when I'm "free standing" and only bracing my body against something.</p>

 

<p>But I figured I might as well share these experiences.</p>

[renatoa]

My experiences are much more encouraging...

My top records I can show if needed are one second at 24mm, 1/15 at 135mm amd 200mm. But not take these as exceptions or coincidences, I think they are normal and very reproductible. Camera used was K100D.

[thebs]

<p>In all honesty, I'm not the steadiest of people. I shake a bit. And 4 out of 5 shots at 1/30th or 1/15th shutter with my K100D (6MP) have no blur when I'm standing and bracing my body against a wall or whatever I can find in low-light situations. I've also still learning EV, playing with the bracketing, etc... and have even switched my K100D into auto-allowing ISO 1600 (100-1600 auto range) in my shots.</p>

 

<p>A few people have stated the K10D (10MP) may show a few more defects in glass, or a tad more movement, than the K100D because of the increased fidelity, but everything I've seen in photos say that's negligible.</p>

[a few images]

I think it is very effective. Walking around with a 5-200mm DA lens in various stages of zoom with the IS off results in mixed image quality (I'm a bit shaky still) - When I turn the IS on, better than 90% of my images are sharp.

[mountainvisions]

1/20th at 450mm (effective) is not too shabby. I've posted the shots from it.

 

1/8th at 50mm consistently.

 

Bottom line is it works and works well. There is variability though so don't expect every shot to be perfectly crisp, but when you consider that nearly 0% of your shots will be usable with the above numbers and SR off any improvement is good. 4-5 stops is incredible, I'd be suprised no matter how shaky you are if you don't see 2.5 stops conistently.

[godfrey]

I have used other cameras with various types of image stabilization (Canons with IS lenses,

Panasonic fixed lens and DSLR with IS lenses, KM A2 with in body stabilization). The

Pentax K10D does as well on IS as the best of them.

 

I hate putting a "number of stops" kind of spec on it... how much motion blur is acceptable

varies too much from one scene to the next and on your personal bias as well. Suffice it to

say that I notice very quickly when I've forgotten to turn it on and light levels drop, or

when I'm using a NON stabilized camera... ;-)

 

Godfreuy

[michael_kuhne]

And, with the K10D, you'll pick up other unique features, such as the terrific Hyper Program and Hyper Manual functions. Instant control, at your fingertips. Spot metering a scene with the Hyper Manual mode is extremely effecient.

 

You will also have availability of the unique Pentax Limited series lenses.

 

If you ever do macro or low light shooting on a tripod, you will enjoy a mirror lockup function for shooting, not found on the Nikon D80.

[j_anon]

200mm at 1/15 about 95% are excellent.

[ned]

Simon, although I did this test last November with a K10D and 200mm f/2.8, it might still be

helpful to you. <a href="http://nedbunnell.blogspot.com/2006/11/k10d-shake-reduction-

sample.html">SR test</a>

<p>

Cheers,

Ned

[simon_hickie1]

Many thanks for all your replies. My rule of thumb for what would be acceptable for me would be something in the order of 1/40th (or even 1/30th if possible) @ 200mm (300mm full frame equiv.), so it looks like the K10D might deliver.

 

The D80 offers a kind of pseudo MLU (exposure delay of 0.4sec). Auto ISO is also implemented very well on the D80. However, matrix metering is over-influenced by the tone in the centre of the image (quite small dark objects result in over-exposure).

 

I guess my big query now over whether to go down the Pentax route is lens availability. Nikon users (especially D200 owners) are very well served with widely available new & used F mount lenses (MF & AF) and also third party manufacturers offerings, but this seems more problematic in the Pentax arena - at least for the moment.

[thebs]

<p>You're kidding me, right? <b>The <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentax_K_mount">Pentax K mount</a> is 30 years old</b>. There are a crapload out there. I mean, you've heard of the K1000 (released in 1976) -- right? The K100D (I just bought in April) was my first SLR, period, and even I (a total SLR noob) had heard of the K1000 (sorry if you haven't).</p>

<p>Pentax also introduced the first, modern Autofocus system in the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-lens_reflex_camera#Autofocus">Pentax ME-F (also a K-mount)</a>. Now the original, <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentax_K_mount#KF_mount">short-lived "KF" mount</a> only made it on 2 cameras (one being the ME-F). But it was quickly improved into the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentax_K_mount#KAF_mount">modern "KAF" mount</a>. So with some exceptions, <b>you've got almost 20 years of K-mount autofocus lenses!</b></p>

<p>There are only a few nuances (like with the manual stop down metering) with old, manual, pre-"A" (original K or M) lenses, on the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentax_K_mount#.22Crippled.22_KAF_mount">K100D (KAF)</a> and <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentax_K_mount#.22Crippled.22_KAF2_mount">K10D (KAF2)</a>. <b>All KA (manual) and KAF (autofocus) work -- 2 decades of lenses</b> -- I believe 20 million from Pentax alone (not including 3rd parties) for the K-mounts (anyone know)? I heard Pentax KAF and other lenses were cheaper on eBay prior to 2003 and the release of the first Pentax dSLR cameras with K-mounts.</p>

<p>I just picked up a very aged (someone mentioned the lens model is around 15 years old?) long Vivitar 400mm f/5.6 full-frame prime lens (35mm equivalent 612mm focal length on the K100D) for $120 on eBay. I just had to input the focal length for the SR to work -- of which it did, <b>solidly!</b>, <b>without</b> a tripod (I only braced it's flat, underlying base). I also have a couple of 10 year-old, full-frame AF lenses -- one AF 28-105mm was only $80. These are, again, from well prior to any Pentax dSLR product release.</p>

[mountainvisions]

Bryan,

 

Nice post and lots of good info.

 

I think Simon is trying to convince himself that Nikon serves his needs better, and it might.

 

The issue with pentax is long fast lenses (or longer AF glass in general). They were made but unfortunately most people are SOL. I was lucky and got my 80-200 2.8 before Pentax became "popular" again.

 

Had I realized this was going to be the case, I'd have also loaded up on a 100-300 or a 300 2.8 which cannot be found for a reasonable price. Reasonable would be at or below original retail.

 

However, that said, I don't think most people enjoy toting 300 2.8's around town or 80-200 2.8's. Mine only comes out occasionally. the rest of the time I prefer a 70-300 4-5.6 which works well and takes up less bag space.

 

Also, the Sigma 100-300 f/4 for Pentax is available new at many stores and is a very good lens with a reasonably fast f/4 aperture at the long end.

 

I'm kinda suprised you found the 400mm 5.6 so cheap. 5.6 isn't fast but it's not too shabby for a 400mm prime.

[thebs]

<p>Yeah. I got lucky, I think. <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250129089348">Here's the Vivitar 400mm f/5.6 link on eBay</a>. I can't figure out what the "film" is, but it's not fungus or anything else (am I just ignorant, and need to get it cleaned?). It's literally just a "streak" on the glass, like someone cleaned it but left some residue. He was totally correct, it doesn't hurt any image quality at all.</p>

<p>The sucker is sharp as my DA 200mm, not "soft" at all -- unless, fo course, I have the aperature or metering off. It might have been a tad soft at f/5.6 I think (still getting the hang of this). f/8-11 mid-afternoon was solid at shooting something 1/3rd of a mile away.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-slr-lens-discussion/8323-cheap-long-range-telephoto-lenses-any-good-how-about-prime-ones.html">Here was the thread on another forum</a> that led to my purchase. A lot of people said I may like some of the "mirror" 400-500mm f/8, and someone else even said his Phoenix 100-500mm wasn't bad. But I really didn't want to go that route, and figured if I could find a "prime," I'd be better served at 400mm.</p>

[simon_hickie1]

Brian, the Nikon F mount has been around since 1959 - I make that 48 years! Justin is right though - it's the availability of fast glass - zooms & primes - that's an issue. There's an abundance of fast Nikon primes out there (MF & AF) that I just don't see in K mount equivalents!

[thebs]

<p>Well, my apologies. I just had a similar comment come from someone where at work last week. He had never heard of the K1000 (and knew very little about Pentax) and assumed all the camera mounts were new. Didn't mean to offend if I did.</p>

[simon_hickie1]

No worries Bryan! My first SLR camera was a Praktica Super TL & later I upgraded to a Pentax ME Super. I eventually arrived at Nikon in the late 1990s via a Minolta X300. Now if only I'd stuck with one system, I'd probably have all the glassware I need already! (I think this is telling me to stick with what I have......).

[thebs]

<p>No, no, I've gotta remember I'm a noob. The last thing I want to do is let my relatively new enthusiasm reflect poorly on Pentax, let alone its established user-base, when it's my ignorance. One has to be careful of "overselling" something, especially when one is still largely ignorant.</p>

<p>To draw an analogy (I'm a long-time Linux user as my sole work, let alone home, function for over 10 years now) ... it's more than no Windows user likes an arrogant Apple or Linux user. It's also the fact that even much more experienced Apple or Linux users don't like them either, because of the attitude their statements cause, especially if the Apple/Linux user is inexperienced and it shows in their overselling. Sometimes marketing is too much, let alone oversells the reality.</p>

<p>I'm still running into people who tell me, "why didn't you buy a Canon or Nikon" -- at least from experts/professionals -- although they are fewer and fewer every moment. I guess that's what I got a 'tude about. Although at work, it's been largely the opposite -- because we're all prosumer/non-experts and don't have the money to be otherwise. And in the case, it's more like "I could have had a V8" type response.</p>

[mountainvisions]

Simon,

 

The fast primes are not an issue with pentax...I have a 35 2.0, 50 1.4, 135 2.8 and a 24 2.8, 28 2.8 in pentax SMC. I'd have more but my wife gives me this ugly look everytime I drop a few hundred on a lens so the zooms I have will have to fill in. I also had 300mm f/4 SMC for a while that was a good lens but for sports MF is tough.

 

The zooms and long lenses are the only issue. For primes, Pentax blows away both Nikon and Canon in options and quality in both modern and legacy glass. The limiteds are second to none.

[mountainvisions]

Oh and while the f mount has been around since the 60's Pentax supports the screw mount lenses as well. I would almost say fully if you don't mind missing the aperture readout since the shake reduction works.

[thebs]

<p><b>Justin</b> -- Is there a good Q&A and "here's the beef" type response on "Why do people like Pentax SLRs so much? I don't see them being as feasible of a choice as a Canon/Nikon dSLR solution? Why do people respectfully disagree?"</p>

<p>If not, it sounds like one hell of a good blog idea, especially if someone experienced with both Pentax and non-Pentax can go through and show the "considerations" when it comes to how Pentax offers its options.</p>

[mountainvisions]

Bryan,

 

I really don't think there is a better camera brand. Not in terms of IQ and lens quality. In everything else they all have advantages and disadvantages.

 

Where say Canon or Nikon excel is the niche of pro sports. it's that area that Pentax has chosen not to compete at all and my guess is most pentaxians don't care, as I see very few sports photos from Pentax shooters.

 

As I've noted many times the 10D/20D/30D Canons are THE choice of pro photojournalist (non sports). And specs wise the 30D is on par with the K10D in all but frame rate but Pentax K10D is weather sealed and has SR.

 

What I'm saying is all the hoopla about the better system is just that, hoopla.

 

For my needs Pentax has been excellent in every area. As far as sports if it got to the point I felt the camera was holding me back, I'd simply add a second system just for action sports which would be cheaper then totally restarting, and still give me the advantages I find in the Pentax system.

 

But in the end it's just preference. A unbiased blog where people could get the real advantages of each brand (not the marketing hype) would be a great thing. I think a lot of people have preconvceived or ill conceived notions about various brands for whatever reason and lack the real information to choose the best brand for them.

[thebs]

<p>I think that is what I was suggesting. A blog article or some other reference that doesn't try to prove if and why Pentax is better. But a blog entry that merely goes over what Pentax does offer. Some bullet items to start ...</p>

<ul>

<li><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentax">Pentax</a> has been around for almost 90 years, the SLR market for over 50 years.</li>

<li>It's digital SLR compatible <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentax_K_mount">K-mount</a> has been around for 30 years, and has been selling its digital SLR compatible KAF/KAF2 (autofocus) lenses for 20 years.</li>

<li>All <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentax#K_Series_.28Digital.29">2006+ Pentax, APS-C sized dSLR products feature in-body shake reduction</a>, providing adequate image stablization for all lenses -- NOTE: manual or adapted lenses require a manual focal length input for SR</li>

<li>Pentax sells an entry-level, APS-C sensor-sized dSLR product in the 6MP <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentax_K100D">K100D</a> that offers "scenes" that cater to Point'n Shoot users, while still offering experienced SLR users more expert "priority," "program" and "manual" modes with a single wheel. It sells for under $500 in the United States with a DA 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 lens kit (sometimes $400 after rebates).</li>

<li>Pentax sells an expert-level, APS-C sensor-sized dSLR, weather-sealed, full pentaprism dSLR product in the 10MP <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentax_K10D">K10D</a> that offers "program," "priority" and "manual" modes, two wheels and other, "single button/change" options directly on the unit. It has won numerous awards including top awards from TIPA, American Photo and others in 2007, and has been consistently selling in the top 10 of all digital cameras sold in Japan (the only dSLR in the top 10). It sells for under $1,000 in the United States with a 18-55m f3.5-5.6 lens kit (sometimes $800 after rebates).</li>

<li>Pentax sells both APS-C sized "DA" lenses and other, full-frame "AF" auto-focuses lenses compatible with products from the popular K1000 to the K10D.</li>

<li>All modern Pentax branded lenses are known for their SMC (coating) that greatly reduces lens flare and other issues. Select Pentax "*" and "limited" lenses are weather-sealed.</li>

<li>Given the price points for its camera and lens products, with the added, included, standard capabilities (e.g., weather seals on a sub-$1,000 product, standard coatings on all lenses, etc...) and focus on feasible, cost-effective, "good enough" approaches to reduce costs (e.g., in-camera shake reduction, in-camera auto-focus motors, etc... instead of in-lens), Pentax products are considered a "high value for cost" solution.</li>

<li>This value is very popular among student photographers (e.g., the best-selling K1000), entry-level photo-enthusiasts as well as prosumer and even professionals who want an expert-level product and lens kit capability at an affordable price.</li>

<li>In the United States, Pentax has been running various rebate promotions on its K100D and K10D products. Currently a $150 rebate on the combinational purchase of the $400 K100D with DA 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 kit lens, along with the $230 DA 50-200mm f/4-5.6, brings the 2-lens solution down to or under $500 -- a price point that competes well with American consumers already considering a high-end, "superzoom" solution.</li>

<li>Despite Pentax's operating size and R&D budget, their products are very proliferated and available in volume (especially in consideration for their site), including the latest K100D and K10D dSLR products which are currently some of the best-selling dSLR products in the United States and Japan.</li>

</ul>

[thebs]

<p><i>Whistling</i> ... almost 2 days gone by, no comments. Oh well.</p>