Huge dark hall with black walls - any advice?

[kosta_cherry]

For our next wedding clients have ceremony and reception in a huge dark pyramid

building with BLACK walls all over and white ceiling. Ceiling is about 24-28 ft

high and is located in a lower 1/3rd part of the pyramid, so for us the shape is

more like a black box with white ceiling. Floor is black too; all chairs and

tables are white; some chairs are at the altar (for choir). I guess it's the

utlimate black/white problem :) (and as usual, bride wears white and groom is in

black).

 

 

Some light is available from the overhead can lights. The middle part of the

building (where guests sit and where procession/recession passes through) lit

better than altar (about 1 stop better).

 

 

We shoot with on-camera 580EX and (recently acquired) Lightsphere IIs. No, we

don't shoot with off-camera flashes (yet; we are working to improve our skills);

but we have spare 580EX (backup) which might be used in a slave mode.

 

 

Lens are 70-200/2.8 IS on Canon 5D and 17-55/2.8 IS on Canon 20D.

 

 

Ambient light gives 1/20s @ F2.8 @ ISO 1600.

 

 

I can shell out about $1K for stobes, but I will be afraid to use them without

experience (unless there is a setup that can be automated as much as possible);

plus it will take some time to find the best solution in this price range.

 

 

We will be able to get decent quality pics from the ceremony and reception, but

client wants to have formals at the same location. I hate to give client FORMALS

with noise which will be unavoidable unless we can come up with some solution.

Plus, I want to increase quality for other pics too.

 

 

Any advice?

 

 

SY-

Kosta.

[jerryfergusonphotography]

Alas, this is the limitation with some of the on-flash diffuser solutions. They don't do a whole lot when your ceiling is 30 feet away or you're in a dark room, or you're outdoors at night.

 

I try to keep it simple and use a $3 piece of 20x30" (or so) white foamcore board at a 45 degree angle with my bracket-mounted flash bounced off of it. On camera flash bounced straight up into it looks pretty much the same. I've got it down to a science. It may be a bit unwieldy at first(might be a good job for an assistant if you have one) and may not lend itself really well to candids since you're holding up a 'sign', but I've found it a great alternative to setting up cumbersome strobes. I use it for large groups all the way down to individual portraits - it's perfect for formals. Just think of it as an 'artificial ceiling' right above your head. Done right, it's like having a quick n'dirty softbox by your side, and it's WAY better than direct on-camera flash.

 

BTW, How do you like the 17-55mm IS lens? I'm seriously considering it for just such occasions when I want to balance some ambient and bounced flash.

[barry_davis___st._louis__m]

Kosta, last Saturday I had a very dark reception hall. Dark walls, dark ceiling and glass on the sides! I used my on camera 580 tilted at 45degrees with the white tab extended. I got great results from 2-15 feet. I use the flash in maual mode but could have gone with ETTL as well. The attached image was shotwith the 580 on camera. f5.6, 1/60, 800iso, 28-75Tamron at 54mm. I exposed for the Arch and filled them in with the flash. Most all my cake shots are done in the same manner stated above...the white tab I guess will act as your white ceiling as Jerry mentioned.<div></div>

[bruce_rubenstein]

I've shot in the Copacabana twice, which has black walls and ceilings. A 3x5 bounce card (I used a homemade one that reflects more light and is sturdier than an index card.) works well. One thing to watch out for are the high hats or spot lighting if you're using some combination of high ISO, low shutter speed or large apertures, because if a subject goes into that light it's very easy to overexpose them and you'll get yellow contamination from the tungsten lighting. This would be a good situation for gelling your flash to match the tungsten light. When you get a subject illuminated by two different, equal intensity color lights, you can't get a neutral WB: it's one color or the other.

[annealmasy]

Are you saying that the ceiling is peaked like a pyramid? If so, this is what I would do:

 

Set up two of your 580's on stands at the sides of the room at a 45 degree angle to

eachother (not opposite walls; adjoining walls).

 

You will need a miniphone to hotshoe cable, since the 580 does not have a sync port.

(Check out this link for cable heaven: http://www.paramountcords.com/pockwiz.asp --

just know that 580's ONLY fit in Paramount hotshoes, so don't get another brand!) Sit the

flash in the hotshoe and plug the cable into a Pocket Wizard. I recommend the Pocket

Wizard Plus II Transceivers; they will both transmit and receive, depending on the setting

you choose.

 

Make sure both flashes are in Manuel mode. You can probably shoot at 1/8 power; since

the ceiling is white and angled, you'll get a lot of reflective bounce light. For a more

natural effect, you could set one of the flashes a stop lower than the other, and shoot one

at 1/8 and one at 1/16, or one at 1/4 and one at 1/8.

 

Another Pocket Wizard on your camera will fire these flashes. I would shoot at 2.8 so that

a lower flash power is needed; it will also draw in more ambient. You can probably shoot

at 1/60" at ISO 400.

 

Get some nice rechargeable batteries for the flashes. They'll recycle faster and last longer

than regular AAs.

 

Set your flashes to Custom Function 14 so that they won't turn themselves off when

they're off-camera! :) You can find detailed info on this in your manuel.

 

For formals, you should be able to position one light bouncing off the pyramid angle that's

direcly across from the group, then use another light low behind them illuminating the

black wall SLIGHTLY to create separation. Make sure your 580s are zoomed all the way

wide.

 

The other photographer can walk around with the third flash and your Lightsphere and get

"safe shots". :)

 

This is something you can EASILY practice before the wedding day. The most expensive

investment will be the Pocket Wizards if you don't already have them. Midwest Photo

Exchange sells them for $189 each. You'll need three Transceivers.

 

The cables are $45 each from Paramount, and you'll need two. (I recommend having one

or two backup cables as well!)

 

I know it's scary to go to off-camera lighting, but you have to make the jump at some

point, and if you can practice before this wedding it shouldn't be too scary. Get there an

hour early on the wedding day to set up and make sure everything is working properly. If

worse comes to worse and you start having a panic attack, you can always revert back to

the Lightspheres. ;)

 

But if you go in there with a couple of on-camera diffusers, you're just not going to get

stellar results. For the formals ESPECIALLY you need to be able to control your light better

than that.

 

If you don't want to go the Pocket Wizard route, or if you don't have time to buy the stuff

and practice before this particular wedding, then shoot MANUAL on-camera flash for the

formals, and set a second flash to slave and put it behind them for separation. You can

direct-flash them through the diffuser at a manual power of probably 1/16, depending on

how close you are to the group. It will give you a better outcome than ETTL.

 

Ok.

 

Now I'm done.

 

:D

[annealmasy]

Oops, I forgot one thing:

 

The idea would be to set up your lights so they illuminate the part of the room that will

have the most action. I would set up one light to bounce off the angled ceiling above/

behind the band, and another to bounce off a ceiling above/behind a food table. (Shots of

guests loading their plates aren't really key.) ;)

 

You want to focus on the dance floor and the head table. Then, you can experiment with

moving around the room -- lights in the same place -- and you'll see dramatic differences

in the types of light you can get. Shooting into the light can be really cool for a few shots,

and shooting WITH the light will give you safer, more evenly-lit images.

 

And of course your second shooter will still be using the Lightsphere, so you can get quick

easy shots that take place outside of that room or away from your lighting setup.

[steve_levine]

Barry: With all due respects, I hate to burst your bubble. But I don't think your flash work presented here is an example of "great results". I see poor flash and camera technique, that caused a loss of detail in the flesh , and the dark suit.

[picturesque]

The biggest problem is separation, especially of the groom or anyone else wearing dark clothes or that has dark hair. The typical bounce lighting from Lightspheres or other bounce modifiers that depend on good bouncing surfaces won't work well here. You can bounce off the white ceiling, but you will get racoon eyes since there will be no wall bounce to help redirect the light into eyes. I wouldn't even use a Lightsphere in this situation--the results would be similar to modifiers that waste less light, so why waste the light? For the second photographer using on-camera flash only, I'd use a Demb Diffuser/Flip It or big white card. You need to get some frontal light on the subject besides the ceiling bounce, and stay within 12 feet of subjects, using shutter drag. I'd use the same thing on the primary camera as well. Bruce has a good point though--those can lights and spotlights can mess up your shutter drag, causing motion blur and off coloration, not to mention blown highlights.

 

If it were me, I'd set up my two off camera lights for everything--ceremony and reception, providing either rim light or overall accent/separation light where needed. However, since you don't have that kind of set-up, I would buy a 430EX (to add to your spare 580EX) and practice using the Canon wireless system. The thing that could trip you up is the reliability of triggering. I don't use that system, but I have heard it is a concern, and I would try to keep the lights within the usable, reliable range, and practice alignment of the wireless sensors.

 

Are you allowed to use flash during the ceremony? Obviously, if you aren't you just have to deal with the ambient present. I would rim light the processional (which would mean key light the recessional). And if flash is allowed, I might also try to rim light the actual altar area (or light the background), depending on space. When working with flash, I would keep my ISOs lower--400 or 800.

 

For formals, I would use the spare 580EX, full manual into an umbrella (key light, ISO 400) at 10 feet from groups and to one side of the camera, trying to keep groups medium sized and smaller, with the on-camera flash acting as fill. I'd use the 430EX as separation light on the groups, if it is needed. I'd use a tripod and drag the shutter, but if the conditions are black on black on black, it isn't going to help a great deal since you get no reflectivity from walls and you don't want to be using ISO 1600 for formals.

 

For the reception itself, I would either place the lights in the classic "opposite wall" method, not bounced (this might cause reliability/range problems) or keep one or the other closer in to the action as key or rim light. Also, bouncing the off camera lights still gives you racoon eyes--the key is frontal light and separation light in this kind of situation.

 

Or, you can get a 430EX AND 3 Pocketwizards and cords, as Anne suggests. And if you wanted to keep things simple, you could just use the spare 580EX as separation light only, moving it about on a stand (or assistant) as needed. Even for formals, you don't have to push the ISO up high if you know the limits of your on-camera bounced-into-a-white-card flash. That should give you adequate light on the subjects and with added separation light, you won't have subjects merging into the background.

 

If the wedding isn't real soon, you can spend some time figuring out what kind of strobe kit you might want and use for other purposes, but since this step should be taken with much thought beforehand, I would not rush into it.

 

Finally, don't underexpose--that just makes noise worse. Shoot RAW and possibly blow some tiny highlights--probably unavoidable. You can recover those if you shoot RAW.

[nancy s.]

Barry.. your idea isright but you did not add enough flash. I agree with Steve.

 

The bounce flash card is a goor idea as well, expecially if you do not have the strobes to light up part of the room.

 

You could also use an assitant with a flash on a stick as your Key Light and your on camera flash for fill light to illuminate your subjects andget some nice depth to the images as well.

[wedding-photography-denver]

Remote a couple of strobes on PW's.

[kosta_cherry]

Thank you to all!

 

After reading and scouting around I decided to bite the bullet and try strobes with PW.

 

To Jerry - 17-55/2.8 on 20D is much better than 24-70/2.8: they are more sharp and render better color. Let me put it this way: I owned 24-70/2.8 and got rid of it; I on 17-55 and going to keep them (unless I upgrade to FF or Mark III).

 

 

SY-

Kosta.

[dakotah_jackson]

A set of ceiling strobes like we use in a High School gym will solve your problems. Big Metz 60 series flash units in the corners will put out enough bounce light even with black ceilings if you can't put up ceiling units.