To Wedding, or Not To Wedding?

[codyj1286]

This thread is mainly driven from my personal need for "self-assurance" of the

work that I've been doing in my wedding photography. It is also driven out of

reading the many threads of "Don't Do It" to the "First Time Wedding" posts.

 

I feel like there may be many people that are in my same situation, and that

advice from other people/Pro's may be an excellent thing to help me (and

everyone else) out.

 

Background:

I've been involved in photography for around five years now, that is, actually

making an attempt to learn and produce great photos. Before ever attempting my

first wedding I'd done many portrait sessions with friends, and even done a few

paid Senior Portraits. All of them were really successful, and I'd built a

really good reputation around my small town of being a decent photographer.

 

The first wedding was for a great friend's daughter, shot it on my Elan 7NE (the

first and only time I will shoot a wedding in film). I charged very little, in

all of this I've never pushed myself as a "Pro Photographer", and always have

charged much much less than they do. I always explain to the B&G the situation,

showed them the portfolio's of previous weddings, and have always produced

expected results for the customer.

 

I'm well versed in my equipment, I have decent lenses, and use an XT 350D.

Obviously not optimal for longevity, but its produced great images for me

personally, and I've never had complaints.

 

Question:

I've felt very turned off by all the "you shouldn't do it" remarks that I hear

in the first time posts, because I partially fall into that amateur ranking of a

photographer. I look at Photog like some Sports, in that if you're not a Pro,

you're an Amateur, Intermediate isn't really a classification. I'm only

analyzing this now because of a desire to further my abilities as a

photographer, and to continue to continue to do weddings for customers. I'd

eventually like to branch out into non-friends, and plunge into the normal

market.....obviously I have a LOT of growing to do before that time, but its my

goal.

 

I haven't found many posts that are made by confident photographers dealing with

this issue, and so I apologize if this has been posted before, but I feel the

specificity of many of those "first timer" threads don't apply to my situation.

If someone may be able to critique my "road map" to complete my goals, I would

greatly appreciate it!

 

Assistance in placing these points in a priority order would really help:

1. L Glass

2. Upgrade Body to 20D/30D and eventually a 5D (at what point should I stop

focusing so much on the body, and spend more on establishing L Glass?)

3. Shadow a Pro, in the many forms, such as 2nd Photographer, or Assistant.

4. Aside from Weddings, I also enjoy non-wedding Portraits, and if available, I

would love to move into Fashion.

 

I appreciate all of you who read this thread, and absolutely am thankful for any

and all advice that is given.

 

Thank You!

[vlad khavin]

Cody, you might consider bumping #3 up to #1. The others... well... what order to do them in is really what's most right for you. If you are not unhappy with the current body you are using, then I would suggest getting better glass first. If you already have decent glass but are finding the Rebel to be less than what you want/need, then get another body first and keep your Rebel as a backup body. But definitely, try and start working with an established photographer soon rather than waiting until you have all of the fanciest gear. You can build your gear bag as you go, but the more experience you get, the more ready you will be to go out and do your own thing later down the road. The portraits and fashion stuff really doesn't need to be in this list. You can do that at any point if you want to expand in that direction.

 

I am not trying to minimize the importance of good equipment. Equipment IS important, but all the great equipment in the world is not nearly as valuable as the experience you get by going out and actually doing it. In the end, it's not really the equipment that takes the pictures; it's you. The amount you will learn from working with an established photographer is incredible.

[l_e]

Here is my take on the whole deal. You are either a good/great photographer, or you aren't. It has nothing to do with weddings, or experience shooting weddings. You have the eye, you get it, or you don't. If you have an eye for great photography (either natural or developed) then you will take great images at a wedding. The business side is a different story.

 

Having said that... if you've got it you don't need to apprentice or 2nd shoot. If you don't have it get some training, something more substantial that assisting/2nd shooting. Practice, critique, and repeat.

[stephen dohring]

Hey Cody - there is no one answer for every person. A thing called talent, natural ability or whatever you want to call it exists at different levels for different people. I have critiqued many a 1st weddings of people who just don't have the eye for this and although they can improve on it can be quite obvious they will never get too far. I have also seen a 1st wedding from some that is far better than how I shoot. The one thing with wedding photography though is experience combined with talent is they way to go. Learning when moments happen, the flow of the event etc. It is great to so some cheap and free or even better to shadow a pro for ideas and see how they work.

 

In regard to your goals I think it would be smart to either try all kinds of photography out - intern etc and then narrow down a focus picking one main type that you are passionate about and can be known for. You will always get side jobs but many top pros found out that 80% of their income was weddings or portraits and decided to pursue that which made the most sense for their business. From your post I think you know enough not to listen to everything others say and there is always an exception to the rule. I read posts from people who say you should second shoot or assist for 1 or 2 seasons blah blah blah. You can get as good as you want as fast as you want depending on the talent level you have, nothing is the same for everyone, go with you gut on everything and you will be ok. Your photos look pretty good and you seem like a smart guy, listen to yourself 1st.

 

What I did and do is second shoot for a top pro in the area 1-2 times a month for very low pay and I shoot for a very low budget studio where I am the only shooter and the customers know little about good photography. I get to gain experience as being the one in charge and I get to see how the best in the business work at the same time. It has been paying off well, and I am getting good faster than any other way because I learn one week, apply it the next week, etc. I am never in a rutt as a 1st shooter with bad habits or a second shooter without "pressure" experience. I knew this was how I wanted to get started after my first "almost free" wedding, those images got me in the door.

 

I am not a canon expert but good glass is the best investement - start there.

[terry foster]

I have a couple of weddings to do as a second photographer, if it dont go well, i will learn from the experience, also nothing lost because the pro photographer will get the images what are needed (he as 20 years experience), i have a Nikon D80, the pro advised i get a D200 because the first time i shoot in wet conditions my camera may get naffed (i will keep this for backup) if you can afford L Glass all the better (some of the best wedding photos i have seen are the ones without flash) so a fast Lens is a must. Once i have been with a pro i may or may not go into wedding potography, but i will be the wiser ether way. From a amateur photographer- Terry.

[paul_sokal___dallas__tx]

Cody,

 

I agree with a lot of the comments made above. Do you want to be a wedding photographer? If the answer is yes, then why? It will really help you to understand what's driving you down this path.

 

Wedding photography is part art, part science, and a lot of business. The art part requires some level of talent for photography. I think some of this can be developed, but there must be some seed to grow. Some people are shooting weddings, who as Steve said, will never produce art, they will never get it. Looking at your portfolio, you appear to have some understanding of photography as art. You may not be the Joe Bussink, HCB or AA, but there is something there. Study, read, see, practice, learn.

 

The science involves knowing the science of photography and your gear, but more importantly the science of psychology. To be successful, IMO you need to be able to bond at some level with your clients in order to optimize how you capture their emotions on their special day.

 

And if you want to be successful, you need to know how to run a small business, from accounting to marketing and advertising. Even with the greatest talent, if you or someone you hire can't run a business, you will be eating kibbles and bits the rest of your career.

 

Personally I think a period of apprenticeship with a quality photographer is invaluable. Whether it's a year or a dozen weddings or what, just do it.

 

The gear is one of the last thing I'd be concerned with, though it's stilll important. At a seminar I attended, Marcus Bell showed an award winning image he shot while putting his kid in the car seat. The only camera he had was a 4 MB P&S. Once you're into gear aqusition mode though, I go for quality glass first and then bodies, which are being constantly upgraded anyway.

 

Good luck,

Paul

[neilambrose]

<p>Interesting post, Cody. Here are a few thoughts, in no particular order.</p>

 

<p>I'd suggest you think carefully about a lot of what you read here. There are many

people who post insightful and considered remarks, and from whom everyone can learn.

Equally, there are a few people who don't, and whose comments should not influence you

unduly. With that in mind, I suggest you don't use any internet forum as a benchmark for

your progress, or a substitute for your own development. Far better to read a lot, look at a

lot of good photography and shoot for yourself and judge your own abilities.</p>

 

<p>'Shadow a pro' is meaningless advice out of context. What defines a pro? To be blunt

there is no barrier to entry for wedding photography, and you should be very selective

about who you let influence you. What you should aspire to is spending time with

photographers whose work you admire. If you're not excited by them then don't plan on

learning much.</p>

 

<p>The glass does the work. The body is just a convenience. Given the choice, it's always

better to invest in lenses rather than cameras. Figure out the minimum you need from a

body and spend the rest on glass.</p>

 

<p>One thing that you didn't mention in your road-map was education. I don't know your

location or circumstances, but if you have any opportunity then consider taking fine-art or

fashion photography classes. I've noticed that many people get hung up on the technical

stuff and think they need to learn how to operate strobes or cameras better. Ironically it's

not the most important thing. Far more useful is to learn composition, use available light

to the full and develop your graphic eye. Anyone can work a flash with practice; far fewer

people can visualise and capture good pictures.</p>

 

<p>Lastly, you don't need to shoot only weddings to develop skills in wedding

photography. Ultimately it's all about anticipation, timing, composition, lighting and

technique. You can learn that in lots of places. The only aspects of wedding photography

that are specific to shooting weddings is the pressure and people skills - the other stuff

you can develop in your own time.</p>

[codyj1286]

Well I'm at a loss for words.

 

Thank you all very much for your poignant comments, there is a lot here from which I can go off of, and I truly appreciate all of the advice. The response, and quality of responses I've gotten in such a short time is very assuring, and I'm glad that I was able to get some outside thoughts. Maybe I just don't peruse this particular section of the Wedding and Social Forum, but I haven't seen responses like this in a very long time.

 

In response to Neil A. about Education, I've taken basic courses in Photography, 101 and 102 when I was doing my general education work. I'm actually a Biochemistry Major at the University of Washington in Seattle, so there are definitely many outlets that I could pursue for fine art education. Before I'd taken the Photo classes at my previous community college, I'd actually set up, and was working in my own B&W Darkroom....with no formal education, learning how to do it mainly through these forums. I think that personal education, and want to learn has really shaped my photography as it progresses. I didn't just grab a dSLR and start shooting, first I learned Film, and the painstaking-yet-rewarding task of a Wet Darkroom.

 

Thanks Again! Truly, truly, appreciate it!

-Cody

[robbie_caswell]

I have worked for a year and thirty weddings for an establihed local pro and it flattened the learning curve in many ways.

 

If you are happy shooting film, then shoot film and buy the best glass. Down the road, invest in digital when you have the weddings and cash flow to justify the expense.

 

As for whether go go digital. You could That is a very slippery and expensive slope. I don't care how many tell you it's cheaper than film... they all lied!

 

Well more a financial wash than a lie. The small expenses keep adding and adding after the big purchases have been made.

 

You would be hard pressed to find fault with the EOS3. My two 1V bodies are in mint condition and a dream to handle. All affordable and a big upgrade. This weekend I'm shooting 10 rolls of B+W cause I don't care if I ever see another RAW file again.

[david_schilling___chicago_]

I'm one of those people that believe you need to pay your dues before you start soliciting weddings for money. I would recommend that someone serve some apprenticeship for one or two seasons (25-50 weddings) as an assistant/2nd shooter/lead shooter before trying to start their own studio. If you're shooting digitally, you should have some sense of post-processing skills using PS. You should understand lighting/light ratios and be able to explain short, broad, flat,and butterfly lighting setups. The difference between soft and hard light, etc..... Anyone can take a dSLR and get 20-30 nice images out a couple of hundred exposures. A professional will get consistent good images. Course, YMMV.

[codyj1286]

Robbie, thanks for the advice on the equipment. I'm already and avid user of digital, and find it great for the weddings that I have done. I wouldn't think of going back to film for shooting friends' weddings. This day in age with technology what it is, I think people have more fun with having hard copies of their images to present in a number of ways.

 

David, thanks for the advice. As given above, before I actually "solicit" myself into the true Wedding market, I will undergo an assistant position with a market established photographer. Up until now I've only done weddings by request of friends and family. All of the friends/family have intimate knowledge of my photographic ability, and I've done a few for lessened pay, just for fun. Most of the learning things you've mentioned, I'm already fluent with. Learning the ins and outs of professional lighting is something I am eager to learn, thank you for suggesting that.

 

I also have more of a photographic background, with a lot of knowledge, I wasn't an "anyone can take a dSLR and get 20-30 nice images", even out of the gate...like explained in my second post. I value your cynicism, it is just as helpful as some of the comments above.

 

Thanks Again

[fotografz]

Cody, you shouldn't be put off by direct answers on this forum that don't particularly line

up with your aspirations. While everyone should be civil, it doesn't mean that people with

experience shouldn't give you the benefit of that experience.

 

IMO, talent, a great eye, etc., etc., doesn't make a wedding photographer. It may make for

a good one, or even a great one, but there are really talented photographers that couldn't

shoot a stream of weddings all summer if their life depended on it.

 

Weddings are a study in tactical logistics and anticipation. It is always replete with some

form of surprise ... something Murphy throws your way to knock you off balance. You just

have to be ready for anything, and never miss a beat when that "anything" happens.

 

If you care about what you're doing for a perfect stranger, then you are driven, and being

driven it is hard work. The clients will come and go, and none of them are the same. Most

importantly, they are not your friends and family, and when the rubber meets the road,

you have got to stand and deliver.

 

This may not be Brain Surgery or Rocket Science, but a client without a photo of her dad

walking her down the aisle will make you wish you had become a Brain Surgeon or

responsible for a Shuttle launch : -)

 

If you feel confident about working to those kinds of standards ( you know better than we

do ), then go to it. Don't fret about what lens is best, or what bag to buy. That's the easy

and fun part. Fret about the thing that will make you or break you, and in the process

break the heart of some poor Bride that has dreamed of that one day for years.

[codyj1286]

Thanks very much for the response Marc. I do take everything here with a little grain of salt, and definitely take things, like what David said, empathetically, looking at where he's coming from. I completely understand, from the vantage point of a seasoned Pro, who's honed their skill and craft, that you can't just grab a simple dSLR and start shooting away...there definitely is a learning curve.

 

I absolutely shouldn't come to this forum, looking for responses that in some way justify my photography, and then get offended when people offer a differing opinion. I understand that its a process, and am honestly glad to have people give me a dissenting opinion.

 

Thanks a million, again! :)

[surfidaho]

It is important to be a good photographer, but it is not so important to be great. To use a musical analogy, not everybody can be a rock star. Every town needs some cover bands.

 

You need to be able to confidently market yourself and your services. If you cannot, then no amount of talent will help.

 

You also need to know how to price your services, how to handle difficult customers, and how to put packages together.

 

Shadow a few different pros, once or twice. Weddings aren't that complex. There's a few tricks, like zone focus for the processional, but most of it is relatively simple.

 

Buy good fast glass, but not necessarily L glass. I use an EF-S 17-55mm f2.8 IS and a 70-200mm f2,8L with (gasp!) a pair of Digital Rebel XT's. By the time I blow the shutters, I'll want new cameras anyway. Bodies really don't make that much of a difference compared to glass.

 

Get a wired remote shutter release. Shoot with a tripod or monopod whenever possible.

 

Buy two camera bodies and two flashes. You can't afford equipment failures.

 

Later,

 

Paulsky

[joey_grob1]

i've worked for many other photographers, in alot of places, i always called the people whose work i loved but some people i wasn't wild about called me back.....

 

its not always learning what to do, it is sometimes learning what NOT to do...this can go millions of ways, from handling clients to piles of negs on the floor, but find guys that make a living in photography, and determine for yourself HOW they do it...

 

then whack away by yourself for a couple of years building glass and body collections, learning that business is as much of a science as photography....

 

and try to enjoy yourself while you're at it!

thats right about where i am :)

joey

[gregory_c]

Do not do it !!!! just kidding, I have shot weddings since 1993. Weddings makes the most money for the time. Portraits: indoors & outdoors are a whole lot less stressful, commercial shoots do good money wise (products, buildings) but are hard to get. I enjoy photographing weddings, I get a good chance to show my photography talent, but if it made little money, I would do very few of them.

[jonj]

Cody we are in the same boat I am just starting out just did my first wedding for free. I try to look past the "Dooms Day" posters on this forum. I think you should start with the better glass, and then the body because I doubt another Pro would have you there without decent equipment. Good Luck

[think27]

Dooms Day posters are not encouraged or even allowed here.

 

What we should be doing in the Wedding Forum:

 

1) Absolutely Caution newcomers especially those that think they can buy great equipment and shoot a few weddings and then start charging. The advice should be strong but civil and never sarcastic! The advice is usually the same... Assist, read, practice and make sure you have an artistic talent.

 

2) Give the best advice possible to help someone who is simply trying to help out a family member or friend who would not otherwise hire a photographer due to strict budget constraints.

 

3) Help the newcomer who has just a year or two under their belt with marketing and technical problems.

 

Newcomers... Try to understand that MOST people here are really trying to help and if someone gets nasty or sarcastic - please email me.

 

Newcomers... If people offer civil but constructive advice and it is a tough-love critique of your work - Please do not get on the defensive but realize pros are pros because they know what they are doing and there are some rules that can be broken and some that can not. Take it in the spirit it is given and graciously accept. You'd do well to develop a tough skin and not get defensive and oversensitive to people who are generously giving you their opinions.

 

On the other hand -- Newcomers... Remember that there are many "opinions" here and it is always helpful to look at the portfolios and websites of people that give advice so you can measure the value of what they are telling you.

 

Understand that some photographers assist for a few years and do acceptable work when they go out on their own and other photographers have assisted for a year and have gone on to do amazing work and the reverse as well. It is all about being honest with yourself and listening to the critques and advice of people who you admire. Be open and learn.

 

A word to some people who think they are being helpful when they discourage a newcomer from listening to a pro... You are not helping

and your post will be edited or deleted.