Disadvantages of a no movement 4x5 camera?

[tony_black1]

I am medium format user but would like to step up to large format world. I

would like to buy a new camera but it should be under $2000 including a good

lens with a focal lenght of 50mm in 35mm format.

 

I was looking at fotoman 45ps and was wondering what would be the disadvantages

of not having a movement in a large format?

 

I use Mamiya rz67 and it works great for me so far. the reason i would like to

step up to large format is for the bigger negative.

 

I shoot city, urban scenes from a distance at nite times.

 

Thanks.

[capocheny]

Tony,

 

One of the biggest advantages of a 4x5, aside from the larger negative, is the ability to

place the plane of focus where you want it in the scene.

 

A camera NOT having the above ability is similar to shooting with your 35 mm camera.

The lens, film, and subject planes are all parallel to each other.

 

However, judging by what you want to do with the camera... you may not need movements

anyway.

 

So, the fotoman 45ps probably would be fine.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Cheers

[neal_shields]

Unless you are contact printing, what is the advantage of large format without movements? At 300 dpi comercial prints, you can capture way more detail with your RB67 then the printer can use with anything under an enlargement measured in feet.

 

I shoot 8x10 and make B&W contact prints and have almost given up on 4x5 color because of the difficulty of getting a print that justifies the medium.

 

The FBI study puts 35mm at about 16 meg so do the math.

 

For the type of work you are doing the biggest advantage of large format would be the tack sharp foregrounds that you could get from using a lot of tilt.

[michael_briggs2]

Another movement that is very useful and also easy to use is front rise. Especially in

architecuture, but also with other subjects, using front rise you can render perspective so

that vertical parallel lines in the subject remain parallel in the image, thus avoiding the

impression of the subject (e.g., building) tipping backwards. You might find front rise

useful in your city and urban scenes to refine the composition.

 

I suggest getting a camera that supports movements and seeing what it can do for your

photography. If you are unsure whether you will want to keep such a camera, buy used,

and you can always sell it for roughly what you paid for it. You can transfer your lens (or

lenses) to another camera. Unlike small and medium format camera, LF lenses are not

proprietary to a camera brand.

 

Unless you make really huge prints, the increase in print quality from MF, esp 6x7 MF, to

4x5, is much less than the increase from 135 to MF. I'd list other reasons higher, such as

the large image on the ground glass to compose with and the use of movements, which

you would forgoe with the P&S style LF camera.

 

You should be able to buy a new 4x5 field camera and lens within your budget. Even

easier if you go used with the camera or lens. Don't forget tripod (you probably already

have one for your RB67), film holders, light meter (or use a camera, but awkward).

[tony_black1]

thanks a lot. any camera advice for $2000 including lens?

[aaron_muderick]

It can't hurt to try a Crown Graphic or Speed Graphic to try out 4x5. They can be found extremely cheaply (< $200 for a quality working model). This will give you a good feel for the format without spending unnecessarily.

 

Also, they allow limited movements so you can learn about that.

[bohdan_pryszlak]

You'll notice a plethora of large format cameras for sale on the auction sight. Go buy a Linhof Technika or get your feet wet with a Crown or Speed Graphic as Aaron suggest. You'll always be able to resell it for what you paid for it or darn near close. (Then again, I am a bit of a Linhof snob). I just purchased a Technika V to replace my Technika III and like you, jumped into large format only recently. You will want to have movements - believe me. I sold my medium format gear to help finance the leap but I still keep my 35mm for grab shots. Go for it.

[mag_miksch]

If you are doing landscapes maybe movements are not that important, depends of the type of landscape, in deserts tilting maybe an option, in landscapes with trees not real or you like trees with unsharp tops. I do movements mainly in the studio with a (heavy) monorail camera, in the field I use wooden cameras without front tilt and I dont miss it, for me the weight is more important. Very useful in landscapes is shifting, espacially if there are buildings.<br>Regards<br>Martin

[pvp]

The main disadvantage to having no movements, is that you have no movements. Really. Unless you have a burning desire to limit your capabilities, why go down that road?

 

For 2 grand you can buy a Tachihara or Shen Hao camera, a couple of previously-loved lenses and all the kit to go with them, plus enough film to keep yourself busy all summer.

[eric_leppanen]

The Toho FC-45 Mini is another 4x5 camera with no movements. It is more of a traditional design in that you focus on the groundglass using a dark cloth and loupe, but it is also extremely compact and light weight.

 

Specifications are here:

 

http://www.toho-machine.co.jp/FC-45Mini.htm

 

Also, Badger Graphic has a used unit for sale:

 

http://www.badgergraphic.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=1919

 

That being said, shooting LF without movements can become significantly limiting, particularly with normal and long lenses. There frequently will not be enough DOF to get everything in focus. Plus, if you are shooting urban scenes and want the buildings to look straight and upright, you'll want at least some front rise (which is possible to a limited extent with the Toho when using the eccentric lens panel).

[Troll]

I don't think that you'll gain much (if anythng) by changing. A 4x5 negative has only 2.8 times the area of a 6x7, and generally the lenses of a RZ67 are much sharper than those on most affordable 4x5s. You'd have to make awfully large prints to begin to notice any difference.

[eric_brody]

To each his own, but as I see it, the realistic major advantages to 4x5 are movements and the ability to custom process negatives. The disadvantages of 4x5 are cost, the need to be exceedingly methodical (which some, including myself, really enjoy), and speed, which relates to the need to be methodical.

 

I shoot MF, Hasselblad and Mamiya 7II. At the enlargement sizes I usually do, rarely larger than 11x14, it is pretty hard to tell the difference. If you really do not plan to use movements, I would definitely stick with your present set up. As Mr. Mitchell stated very well, you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference between an 6x7 Mamiya neg and a 4x5 unless you make huge enlargements. You'll gain the advantage of familiarity with your current system, the ability to use a smaller enlarger, or scanner, and a generally decreased hassle factor.

 

Good luck.

 

Eric

[ts_photo]

Lots of interesting advice.

 

Lenses for Large Format (LF) fit almost any such camera. They must be mounted (unscrew, move, tighten) on a lens-board that fits the target camera. Really short lenses may require a 'bag bellows' to work on some cameras, or may not work at all because you cannot get the lens close enough to the ground glass, based on camera design.

 

LF cameras come in 3 basic types, usually: Field, Studio, and Fixed. You know about fixed already. Field and studio versions are similar, but can be divided from each other by weight and portability, size and protection. 5 pounds is about the heaviest 4x5" camera that you'd want to trek with. Lenses, filters, dark-cloth, film holders, etc., add more weight and size to your expedition so keep the camera as small and light as possible to enhance portability.

 

There are generally two bed types, flat-bed and mono-rail. Field cameras mostly use a flat bed, the part to which the lens and film standards are mounted. Flat bed cameras usually have limited movements, more on the front standard than the back. There are designs with greater, even complete movements on front and even the rear standards, but they are often much more expensive or heavy or both.

 

A monorail camerea can be used in the field if you don't have to carry it far, especially if it folds in a way that it is protected and it easy to pack. Most field cameras by design fold and pack away into a small protected box. They have hard sides and bottom that everything folds into for protection.

 

Monorail cameras are typically limited to use in studios because of weight, bulk and they are slower to set up when transported. They typically offer movements that extend to or beyond the limits of typical lenses' coverage. You can get a trunk to store and transport them fully assembled. This is their normal 'case', but it's not a worthy trekking scheme. If you shoot close to the trunk of your car, rather than climb mountain trails, it should work great!

 

As above, lenses fit based on camera capability and being mounted on the correct lensboard. Generally there are two lines of modern lenses, fast, heavy and expensive or slower, less heavy and less expensive. A good wide focal length lens is 90mm. Often, your choice is between 90/f8.0 or 90/(f4.5 or f5.6 or f6.8). The slower lens weighs a lot less, so you can carry it much further if you are trekking. But, slow lenses are often hard to focus. Faster lenses are heavier, but much easier to focus; they are often newer designs with greater covering power for greater movements (rises, shifts, tilts and swings.)

 

A good and versatile kit would include 90mm, 150mm and a 210mm lenses. Substitute anything in the range of 120mm to 180mm for the 150mm. Actual diagonal of the 4x5 format is ((4^2)+(5^2))^0.5 ~= 163mm; this would be about the 'normal' length, equivalent to the 50mm on 135 format(actually 43.3mm)

 

One of the main uses for movements shooting cities is for perspective

correction. Here you can align the film plane to vertical, and then use other

movements to compose and shift plane of focus pro re nata.

[daniel_borzynski1]

For the price of the Fotoman, you can get a 4x5 body field camera or monorail and have a lot of extra cash for lenses and film. One advantage of going with a camera with movements is that you don't have to use them, but they are there if you want them. By any route, Fotoman, field camera, Speed and Crown Graphics, etc., you will still need to purchase a lens.

 

For an actual camera body, the Shen Haos and Tachiharis are great values. Are these the best cameras on the market? No. But they get you in inexpensively and despite what many will say, they are good cameras. Higher budgets will get you into the Linhof/Ebony/Canham ranges, which are really, really nice. I am partial to the Ebony, but they are not cheap.

[tony_black1]

thank you very much to all. i will post another question to refresh the question. thanks very much again.

[elliot_n]

I've been shooting with a Fotoman 45PS (with Schneider SA 90mm f8) for the past few

months.

 

I was already shoot 645, 6x7, and 6x9, and I wanted to get into 4x5 solely for the extra

resolution it offers. In this regard I have been very satisfied (with darkroom c-types, and

imacon/epson inkjet prints).

 

Most here seem to be dissuading you from getting the Fotoman, but it has a lot going for

it - I doubt you could find a lighter, sturdier, and easier-to-operate 4x5 camera.

[tony_black1]

Elliot,

 

so you see a quite a difference btw rz67 and a fotoman 45 in terms of sharpness even in a4 size print?

[elliot_n]

I haven't made prints as small as A4 from my 4x5 negs.

 

At A3 I can see a clear difference between 4x5 and 645 (Mamiya 645AF) and 6x9 (Fuji

GSW69II).

 

It might be harder to see a difference (at A3) between 4x5 and negs from an RZ67, as the

RZ lenses are generally better than the Fuji rangefinder lenses (in my opinion).

 

4x5 comes into its own at A2 and above. If you're not planning to print that big, I can see

little reason in investing in a 4x5 camera without movements.

[tony_black1]

Elliot,

 

do you know what is the longest tele lens (focal length) you can use with Fotoman 45PS?

 

I will do prints of 40"x50" at least. so i think its worth to invest.(even tough there are no movements) ?

[sandor_a._feher]

http://www.fotomancamera.com/default.asp

 

You will find your answer here. Just read all the Q&A.

I have just ordered the 45PS, will be using Schneider APO Symmar120mm/f5.6 lens with it. When you on the move and don't have time for set up it is a great system to snap a photo. Lenses I have since I also have the Horseman FA45. I also have an extra SA 90mm/f8 that I don't use and willing to part with it.

[fp1]

Hi, Tony. I used to shoot an RZ...sold in favor of Hasselblad, which provided much nicer tonality, even with the smaller negatives (it's in the glass). Sold my Blads and MF scanner, and now shoot primarily 5x7.

If you do everything right, even at 8x10, I notice a dramatic difference in terms of tonality and detail vs. medium format, even on a "consumer" 4990. There are sharp lenses in all formats; I frankly don't know how ANY lens can be sharper than the Contax Zeiss lenses I used to shoot on a G1, but film area trumps in terms of tonal range/detail, all other things remaining equal.

 

A very good combination to start with would be a Super Graphic with a 152mm Kodak Ektar. Ektars are ridiculously sharp lenses, especially for the money. The Super Graphic has slight tilt, shift and swing on the front standard, and the back rotates. $200-$300 should procure you a nice one. Don't discount the older (sturdier!) Speed Graphics. They are really cheap, and if you find one with a working focal plane shutter, you can use even older, cheaper glass in barrels, which often have specific characteristics not offered in modern lens lines.<div></div>

[kelly_flanigan1]

Most all the LF images shot in the world have been done with press cameras; with zitch movements. Its like saying most hoops have been shot with kids shooting a hand me down basketball with a hoop on the garaqe; in Indiana. :) Todays LF/basketball user will typically steer a beginner into an expensive wooden cherry Ebony camera body, a wazoo 2 grand lens with movements; a 80 dollar NBA pro ball; 200 dollar shoes.:)<BR><BR> The same fuddy duddy "lets spend the other chaps money" happens in ham radio too. A beginner can have alot of fun with a used Icom 735 "barefoot" 100watt rig for 250 bucks using a homemade dipole. The crusty old farts who preach movements/ebony will quickly preach a beginner needs a 3 grand TenTec/Icom rig; a 2Kw linear amp, a giant tower with Yagi's for 10, 15, 20meters, plus a 10acre plot for a giant rombic antenna farm to collect 10 10 numbers.<BR><BR> One can have alot of fun with starter systems; the real roadblock is folks ill preaching that XYZ is required; the roadblock of expensive "ABC" is required. Alot of good fishing is possible with a 12 ft used boat and used motor and a zebco 202; the Ebony preachers probably require a bass boat with a 100hp motor that cost 35 grand; a 3 grand rod and reel, an a paid person to bait their hooks.:) The old man who has a cane pole by the creek might catch more fish than the preppie bass boat rig that costs more than the old mans house. <BR><BR>If one just wants a big nice negative and to have some fun; a 200 buck Speed graphic has alot of value. If LF is not your cup of tea you can sell the rig for what you paid for it. A used Icom 735, Speed graphic, or used boat for 250 bucks is not a "betting the farm" event for alot of folks. Hobbies dont have to be super expensive if you want to have fun and just focus on what is required; not whats the ultimate killer toys of the moment.<BR><BR>I question whether folks who preach ebony and shifts have a stockpile of goods they are hawking; instead of helping folks new to LF cameras.<BR><BR>

[michael_briggs2]

Kelly, the original question stated that a new camera was wanted, and that the budget was

for camera and lens was $2k. So most or all of the answers have been consistent with the

poster's request. Many people are uncomfortable buying a used camera or lens. It is easy

for highly experienced old hands to forget that at one time they didn't have the knowledge

to distinguish between a used piece of equipment in excellent shape and a lemon. I've

seen used dealers at camera shows offer, a high prices, lenses in poorly working shutters,

or with so many "cleaning marks" that they glow when held up to a light. And there are

plenty of eBay sellers who exaggerate the condition of their wares. Yet, if you either know

enough to judge the equipment or buy from a reputable seller, used will save you a

lot of money. For used LF items, MPEX and KEH are frequently recommended on this

forum. I've dealt with both and can personally recommend them.

 

And photography has changed since 1950, e.g., film is better. What would have been done

with a 4x5 Press camera without movements can now be done in MF, 35 mm or digital. So

saying that most Lf images over the course of history have been made with press cameras

with no movemens isn't much of an argument that one should use a 4x5 press camera

today.