Outgrowing my Rollei? what next?

[amanda_schlesinger]

I'm a documentary photographer, I'm just out of school, I don't have much cash

and I'm not that into gear, but I need something new. For a while, I worked

with a Bronica 645, which was a solid, friendly camera, but so heavy and

unwieldy. I've been working with an old, fun Rollei Automat, but the lens

quality has degraded a bit and I have trouble with sharpness and flare (I

already put a lens shade on it).

 

I'm dizzy with options and research: I'd planned on getting a Mamiya 6 and then

had second thoughts. I don't mind getting an older or used camera. I'd rather

put money into a good lens than a fancy body, which makes me think I should go

with a Hasselblad, but I've never really had any personal experience using them.

 

Issues -

 

Cheapness: I would like to get a kit for under $1500, in an ideal world.

Format: 6x6.

TLR/SLR/Rangefinder: I've started to prefer waist-level finders. Ideally, I

would like something that can be interchangeable, as some of the Mamiyas are. I

liked shooting with a borrowed Mamiya 7, but I like not having the body mashed

against my face - people trust me more. I do want a fairly quiet shutter.

Lens quality: I want better color fidelity and sharpness.

Weight: Can't be heavy.

Meter: Not necessary.

Shutter speed: up to 1/500 is enough.

 

I would appreciate any and all thoughts...

 

or - should I just try and find lenses to stick in my Rollei body, which is in

fine, if slightly beat-up, shape? I've found that collectors drive the price

out of my broke post-college range...

[bob_the_builder1]

I would say Hasselblad 500cm or anothr Rolleiflex TLR, this time with a Planar or Xenotar

lens - your $1,500 budjet should be ample for either second hand and in good condition.

 

Weight wise the Hasselblad is only 250 grammes heavier than a TLR but provides a lot more

flexibility in terms of removable lenses, magazines, etc. I love my Rolleiflex TLR but it is

great to have the option of using longer and wider lenses with my Hasselblad when I need

them.

[jean-louis llech]

Your Rollei Automat TLR cannot use interchangeable lenses. Only the Mamiya C220/C330 can use interchangeable lenses, from 55 mm to 250mm. But a rather old system.<br>

I would suggest the camera I use : the Rolleiflex SL66-E or SE. A very fine camera, with excellent Zeiss lenses. Format 6x6, with waist level finder, and interchangeable magazines. Speeds from 1s to 1/1000s. Interchangeable lenses from 30 to 1000 mm. (50-80-150mm lenses are an ideal lens set). Weight with a Planar 80mm : 1900 gr.<br>

The SL66E has an embedded metering system (average center weighted with 4 cells), the SL66SE has the same metering system plus a fifth cell for spot metering. The SL66-E is about $1500 to $1700.<br>

Both have TTL flash metering using a SCA 356 adapter.<br>

As the metering system is in the body and not in a prism, it can be used with the folding viewing hood, and allows waist level photography. (Of course a 45 degrees prism can be added later).<br>

Focusing with a bellows and front tilt capabilities. Lenses can be retro mounted for close shots without any accessories.<br>

The SL66 Classic without metering system is less expensive (about $700 to $1000 with a 2,8/80 Planar and a 6x6 magazine)<br>

I have been using SL66-SE cameras for several years and I consider it one of the best medium format cameras ever produced. Of course a personal opinion.<br>

You can find many informations about the SL66 system on the <a href="http://www.sl66.com/">Rollei Club website.</a>

[justinblack]

What don't you like about a Mamiya 6?<div></div>

[justinblack]

Sorry that image should look like this:<div></div>

[brucecahn]

Time for 4x5

[fotografz]

Just get another Rollie TLR with a newer, better lens.

 

I use a Hasselblad, but it is a SLR type camera and has mirror flap, so you have to use a

slightly higher shutter speed than you would with a TLR when hand-holding, plus the

Hassey is definitely louder.

 

The Mamiya Range-finders are excellent, but the lenses are slower, (80/4 verses the Rollie

80/2.8) and as you say the camera is at your eye, which you don't like.

[jack_fisher1]

The Mamiya Twin Lens Reflex is a fine camera - although discontinued, and is reasonable in price. The only drawback for you is that it is much heavier than a Rolleiflex. I agree with a previous post, that you should look for another Rolleiflex in better condition. You seem to like the style and features it offers.

[lauren_macintosh]

You might look at the pentax slr 645 its light the shutter is quite more so than others, has a good line of lens may not be zeiss but for the money they good: do not limit yourself to one brand when looking this helps you avoid saying later why did I Not look at that:\\\Lauren

[tariq_gibran]

Reading your post, I don't think you will want to go with the fine Mamiya Rangefinders for

two reasons. First, as you say, your, you will be "hiding" behind it while shoooting and

that can be intimidating to your subject and draw attention to yourself. The Waist level

approach is much better in this regard I have found. Second, you may miss the ability to

focus on a ground glass with the Rangefinders. The Hasselblad is a great camera and with

prices today would be a great choice Except that the noise factor may be an issue as you

have suggested you want a quite camera. The Hasselbald will be much louder than a

Rolleicord/Rolleiflex as will the Rolleiflex SL66 or any other SLR camera. This is where the

TLR have a major advantage. The Mamiyas with interchangeable lenses will be bulky so

unless you really think you need interchangeable lenses, that will be a major consideration

with that camera. In fact, "heavy and unwieldy" would describe the SL66 and the Mamiya

C330 to me compared to the TLR Rolleicord/Rolleiflex and even the Hasselblad which is

very comfortable to shoot using the Waist level viewfinder. The fact that you seem to

really like shooting with the old Rolleicord would suggest to me that you may just want to

buy a Rolleiflex. Look for the E2 which is basically an F without the meter and can be

often found for half the price of the F. I would suggest the 3.5 version with Planar or

Xenotar. You should be able to find that for between $450-$600 or so on the auction site

as one just sold for around $450. If interchangeable lenses are a must, then the

Hasselblad is the obvious choice as it will offer everything you are looking for except is

will be louder than the Rolleiflex TLR.

[wayne_crider4]

A 645 outfit with two lenses will weigh less then any 6x6 except the TLR's and probably the Mamiya 6.

 

WL viewing for most people will put the horizontal plane pretty low unless your using a stool or don't care. Pointing the camera up is pointing the camera up. Could provide converging verticals.

 

If you need to use split grads and some others using a TLR is harder.

 

What are you documenting?

[godfrey]

Coming from Rolleiflexes, Hasselblads, Mamiya and Fuji 645 cameras in the past, I

discovered the Pentax 645 system just recently. If you're doing journalistic work and want

a fast handling, reasonably sized MF SLR with interchangeable lenses, I can't think of a

better choice.

 

Original series, manual focus P645s are priced very well, the lenses are excellent... they

are fast handling and produce excellent results. The P645N and NII models add autofocus

and even nicer control layout. It's hard to go wrong with them.

 

Godfrey

[User_502260]

The Bronica 6X6 equipment sells for very little now. For $1,500 you could get a body, 50, 80 and 150 lenses, a few backs, extenstion tubes, a Speed Grip a prism finder, a waist level finder so extra inserts and still have money left over. I have an SQ-A but you can choose fron the SQ, SQ-A, SQ-B, SQ-AI and SQ-AM (motorized). My SQ outfit is limited because I also have ETR and GS-1 ooutfits. The SQ-A body was $30, the plain prism finder $45, the 80/2.8 lens about $69, two backs for about $35 ea., a Speed Grip for $65 (needed a small repair). You get the picture, prices are low. I have a Bronica 2X-S teleconverter, an S-36 extension tube an extra insert and a waist evel finder to round things out. Your budget is large enough to add a macro lens to the outfit too. You can do a lot of nice work with a TLR and one lens but having an SLR as interchangeable lenses opens up many other areas of creativity.

[nickc1]

If by a Bronica 645 you mean the rangefinder camera when you mention bulk then I can safely suggest the SLR Bronica (etrs?) or a Hasselblad setup are great choices for you - but if you are already finding the Bronica 645 etrs too bulky then you will not find either system to your taste, any more than a Rollei SL66 or a Mamiya TLR would be. They are all too big and heavy. My suggestion is that you will need to look for as early a Rollei TLR as possible (for lightness etc) but late enough to have the optical and mechanical quality you want. The suggestion you re-lens your automat is interesting - would a strip down and clean, including lenses, with everything reset to optimum give you sufficient quality from your present gear to put off the decision until you are in a financial posiotionto widen your choices a bit?

[amanda_schlesinger]

Thanks everyone - a few answers:

 

-I love square format, I'm staying with that for now.

-I really do love the rangefinder focusing system, I find it very easy. I'm nearsighted, and sometimes I do have trouble getting a waist-level finder sharp-sharp. But I really like being able to talk to people without being this intimidating camera-wielding beast - maybe I really need a TLR as well as a rangefinder, for different situations. Would the images be so different as to not belong to the same series?

-I would like to change my lenses, yes, I am getting tired of not having wide-angle capabilities and in crit I've been getting complaints about excessive use of the middle distance. Which is partly lens, and partly avoiding the "pointing up" problem.

-I've done a fair amount of 4x5, I love it, but right now I don't want to be doing posed portraits exclusively. With 4x5 I shot suburban landscapes because I basically did not want to relate to my subjects in such an authoritative way. I do much better chatting while looking down into the finder...I was surprised by how much more confidence and ease it gave me with strangers.

-Right now I've been doing a lot of person-against-landscape, and the waist-level works well for that, provides a kind of grounded, omniscient perspective that's not immediately locatable. That might change, though - my current project is in transition.

[stuart_richardson]

Well, I think you have to figure out what is most important to you. If having interchangeable

lenses and a waist level finder is most important, get a hasselblad, though they are fairly

loud. If quiet and interchangeable lenses are most important, then get a Mamiya 6, but you

will have to bring it to your eye (I really think this is a mental issue, not a huge barrier in real

life. The Mamiya 6 is not that big and it is very quiet. If you feel comfortable about it, so will

your subjects.). If having a waist level finder and being quiet is most important, then get a

better TLR, but it will have only one focal length. Unfortunately, the three criteria you have

are not available in one camera. I think your best choice would be to get the Mamiya 6 and

keep your automat for when you have a particularly skittish subject.

[godfrey]

Ok: Waist level, interchangeable lens, quiet ... Mamiya C22 or C33 series cameras. They meet

everything except being small and light.

 

I'm getting a right angle accessory optical finder for the Pentax 645 so I can do waist level

perspective more easily, even though it is an eye-level only camera with the reflex finder.

With a wide lens, I can focus by scale and DoF.

 

Godfrey

[tariq_gibran]

"I do much better chatting while looking down into the finder..."

Exactly! People are much more open and less intimidated when there is not a camera

between them and you I have found, and this will show in the final images. The wide

angle 50G for the Mamiya 6 Rangefinder is probably one of the best 6x6 wide angles ever

made BUT then the above point goes out the window. That said, once you put a SLR wide

angle on a Hasselblad such as one of the 50's, that camera will become much more heavy

and bulky compared to the normal lens. BUT, there is the very nice, smaller 60mm

Distagon which is just wide enough for great environmental portraits. Thats what you may

wish to check out on the Blad. Also look for a Quick Foccus handle for the lenses which

will make a big difference in qucik, spontaneous operation while engagiing your subject.

[User_502260]

In some models the eyepiece magnifier of a waist level finder can be removed and replaced with a different diopter piece. This is true of the Bronica cameras. That should solve your focusing problem. As far as weight is concerned, that's something you have to thnk about. For you, how heavy is heavy. If I am shooting hand held with a waist level finder then a Bronica ETR is not too difficult to handle. Once you put on a prism the Speed Grip becomes almost mandatory. If you can't decide and don't want to spend too much then try an SQ series camera with one lens and a speed grip. If you like it you can add other parts.

[jorge_jimenez1]

It is NOT possible to outgrow a Rollei. Even an old one.

[hart michael]

I have been using a Rollei 6008 integral with 60/3.5 lens since last year. Like yourself, I prefer the waist level viewing, square format, and also the greater depth of field the 60mm lens gives. The latter effect is quite pronounced over the standard 80mm lens. The more modern lens gives better colour rendition than my Rollei 3.5F. This is a bit heavy but not that bad, actually. There are battery issues but there are ways to solve them. This is still rather expensive, especially the lens part of the kit. A much cheaper way to go, and within your budget is the Rollei SLX - get model 2 - and fit on the body the older Distagon 50/4 lens (or get the Rolleigon which is highly rated). The main challenge is to work out the battery issues, but this is possible. You will certainly get both body and lens for well within your budget, probably much less (my guesstimate). Make sure you go with a dealer like Ffordes

who stocks them and gives a guarantee. You cannot really lighten the load with a wide angle Rollei unless you go for the RolleiWide TLR which is super expensive, about three times your budget. I have used medium format rangefinders and I don't prefer them for all the reasons you have given, and I have migrated to the system which I described here. I would rather have the waist level viewing and take more weight, if given the choice. I sold off all my other equipment except my trusty Rolleiflex TLR. A Hasselblad or Bronica SLR is less suited to hand-holdability, so they say, but I've never owned one. If you want sharpness, the greater depth of field of the wide angle lens renders more of the image sharper, at least in the type of photographs which I do. There is an additional problem of resale value with these, but that applies to all medium format equipment these days.

[hart michael]

What I could add, is that the Rollei 6000 series SLRs and the SLX are a tall camera like the TLR shape, so I found the transition from the TLR to this type of SLR relatively easy. You can also get excellent buys in the 6001, 6003, and 6006 models, but you would have to check regarding using older lens on these, and also the battery situation as the fuses are different in the newer models.

I have a 6001 as a spare body and it appears to me to be particularly light, it really is an underated camera.

[gregg_matthews]

You could buy a Kowa Super 66 with 4 lenses (40 - 150mm), waist level and

45 prism, polaroid back, and case for $1500 or less. It's a retro-looking, beefy

SLR that requires no batteries and makes beautiful negatives and slides.

Check the Kowa forum for sales. Good Luck! ~Gregg

[mike_barger]

I don't know about beefy, but Kowa did make nice glass. I used to have a setup like the above, plus the 250mm.

 

Always wanted to see in person the 19mm Kowa made in this series, I've only see one in their literature and a photo of one from a fellow in Europe.

 

I moved on to hasselblad, it's beefy. I don't think the glass is any better with 8X10 prints than the Kowa glass.

 

Mike