must-have lists

[ibdnzgr]

Brides keep giving me lists of "must-have" shots for their wedding. I am not

talking about specific shots, so much as a complete play by play they must have

downloaded from a wedding planning site.

 

As a photojournalist-storybook type photographer, I keep explaining that I shoot

it as I see it and catching all those moments is part of the process. Looking at

that list is like explaining to your chef at a restaurant the process you want

him to follow in preparing your meal!

 

They need to just trust us! I specify in my contracts and on my website anyway

that I don't guarantee any specific shots.

 

What is your thought on this? I am interested in gaining insite into the

philosophies behind other photojournalistic wedding togs and what you are trying

to capture even as the brides mark off their list.

 

Also... please upload some samples of alternative and unique approaches to the

standard "must-have" shots. You all know what those are.. just maybe you have a

special way of shooting it. A different angle or whatever.

 

Ian

[steve_crist]

The customer pays me - therefore the customer is always right. I will accept a list of specific shots they desire as long as it's not unduly long. Generally I automatically take all the "standard" shots typically requested so most of the time it's a non-issue.

[katieontario]

the customer is always right.. oh I don't believe that, sorry! But that's another thread!

 

My husband and I shoot photojournalistically. But this encompasses all candid, formal, ad spontaneous pictures.

 

Must have lists have their place, as far as formals are concerned especially for many reasons. And we refer to this 'homework', as we refer to it, many times throughout the day.

 

The list we provide our clients has names and relationships, dates and times and places, and this makes them feel confident that we are not missing anybody, or anything important.

 

Regarding must have lists for formals: there is a certain nostalgia about opening our parent's and granparents' wedding albums, and drooling over black and white photos of who is who, and how one is related to them. While the process of photographing these is perhaps typical and contrived, I strongly feel they are necessary.

 

We tell our clients that these pics are usually more important to parents. They will frame these type, and they will frame a more romantic one for themselves.

 

Also, the brides and grooms may have ideas of their own that we welcome: making us even more approachable in our M/O.

[katieontario]

well that upload was a mess and did not work! sorry!

 

I can email it if one likes!

[kiva]

ahh, I see your an newspaper man in an earlier life.

 

Just tackle the formals and find the fun in them and take them and get on with the wedding process.

 

You can find PJ shots seconds before and after each formal group.

 

The PJ style can be shot beautifully within the framework of the Must-Have wedding ... just take them all and smile.

 

If it's "principle" to not do must haves then the answer is easy: tell them what you do and if they don't want it done that way then don't do the wedding i.e. don't work!

 

If it's "art" then I say you're making excuses. It's all Art. Find the art in the must have wedding. Take on the challenge.

 

As an ex newspaperman you certainly went to multitudes of "events" and captured the "must haves" for the editor and then you captured the "art" for yourself.

 

Before and After each "must have" shot is a literal myriad of PJ shots just begging to be captured.

 

Work and do weddings if it's a joy ... if wedding must haves scare you then you are limited to a very small segment of the customer base. If that's agreeable to you then all is well.

 

If, on the other hand, you want to do photography, to work, and do it photographing weddings then learn to meet the customer where they are and capture the wedding they "think" you should see and also capture the one your "art" sees.

 

Give in and go have some FUN!

[ibdnzgr]

Oh, I don't mind the formal portraits, and I ask the B&G to assign somebody to collect the required people for each shot. OK.. here goes.. I'll just copy/paste a couple of them here and you tell me how it makes you feel. I've done plenty of weddings... and this list.. this is just what we do. I just don't like shooting with a piece of paper in one hand and a camera in the other.

 

PHOTOGRAPHER?S CHECKLIST

 

Pre-Ceremony Photographs

- Bride getting ready

- Bridesmaids getting ready

- Groom getting ready

- Groomsmen getting ready

 

- Bride by herself

- Bride w/ back detail on dress

- Bride w/ mother and father

- Bride w/ mother

- Bride w/ father

- Bride w/ immediate family

- Bride w/ individual bridesmaids

- Bride w/ all bridesmaids

- Bride w/ flowergirl and ringbearer

- Bride w/ all groomsmen

- Bride w/ Adam (one of the groomsmen ? a best friend of bride)

- Bride w/ ushers

- Bride w/ groom?s parents

- Groom w/ mother

- Groom w/ father

- Groom w/ mother and father

- Groom w/ immediate family

- Groom w/ individual groomsmen

- Groom w/ all groomsmen

- Groom w/ ushers

- Groom w/ flowergirl and ringbearer

- Groom w/ all bridesmaids

- Groom w/ bride?s parents

 

Ceremony

- Guest book and program attendants

- Candlelighters lighting candles

- Grandparents being escorted down aisle (3 sets of grandparents)

- Mothers being escorted down aisle

- Mothers lighting taper candles

- Groom waiting for bride before processional

- Processional (each bridesmaid/groomsman pairing, ringbearer, flowergirl)

- Bride and father before walking down aisle

- Groom?s reaction when doors open for bride to walk (THIS ONE IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT!!! ? sacrifice the previous picture if you have to!!)

- Bride walking down aisle

- Bride and groom saying vows

- Bridesmaids watching

- Groomsmen watching

- Bride and groom exchanging rings

- Bride and groom lighting unity candle

- Bride and groom taking communion

- ?The Guys? singing candle/communion song

- Bride and groom praying after communion

- Groom kissing bride

- Recessional

 

Post-Ceremony Photographs

- Newlyweds with both of their immediate families

- Newlyweds w/ bride?s immediate family

- Newlyweds w/ groom?s immediate family

- Newlyweds w/ bride?s extended family

- Newlyweds w/ groom?s extended family

- Newlyweds w/ bride?s grandmother

- Newlyweds w/ groom?s grandparents

- Newlyweds w/ minister

- Newlyweds w/ entire wedding party

- Newlyweds signing marriage certificate

- Matron of honor signing marriage certificate

- Best man signing marriage certificate

- Bride?s and groom?s hands displaying rings

 

Reception Photographs

- Entrance of newlyweds into reception site

- Cake table

- Newlyweds cutting cake

- Newlyweds feeding each other cake

- Newlyweds drinking toast

- Guests getting food/cake

- Candid shots of guests, wedding party, newlyweds

- Bride and father dancing

- Groom and mother dancing

- Bride and groom dancing their first dance

- Bouquet toss

- Garter toss

- Wedding party decorating car

- Finished decorated car

- Bride and groom leaving reception

- Bride and groom getting into car

[ibdnzgr]

And here is another. Now I really am very much looking forward to shooting this outdoor wedding and the bride is really a great girl. I just didn't quite know what to think when given this list. She already has her album planned. Sort of like a student handing the teacher a syllabus. I told her that if I see these happen, I most definitely will shoot them, but that I don't contrive events to create the images. Her wedding should happen however it happens. Most of these shots are things I would do as a course of the event.

______

 

Must-Have Photos

Getting Ready

 

? Bride's clothes hanging on the wardrobe, on the

bedpost, or over a chair

? Bridesmaids doing bride's hair and makeup

? Bride and bridesmaids getting dressed, applying

makeup

? Mom helping bride with one last detail, such as

veil

? Full-length shot of bride in gown checking herself

out in mirror

? Detail of clothing, shoes, garter, something

borrowed, something blue

? Touching shot of bride with parent/s and/or

stepparent/s

? Bride hugging honor attendant

? Bride with bridesmaid

? Bride with all the women

? Groom getting ready with Dad and pals (tying the

tie is a classic)

? Touching shot of groom with parent/s and/or

stepparent/s

? Touching shot of groom with sibling/s

? Groom with his arm affectionately around best man

? Groom with all the groomsmen

? Groomsmen putting on boutonnieres or bowties

? Intimate shots of bride and groom chatting

with/crying with/hugging parents and siblings

? Dad whispering last-minute advice to groom

? Groom ready to go

? Bride ready to go

? Bride and groom separately making their way to the

ceremony (in a limo backseat, hailing a cab, walking

down the street/hall/stairs)

The Ceremony

 

? Guests streaming into the site

? Ushers escorting guests to their seats

? Ushers escorting moms to their seats (Christian

wedding)

? Close-up of groom's adorably nervous mug waiting

for his other half

? Bridesmaid and best man walking down the aisle

? Flower girl and/or ring bearer entering

? Honor attendant walking down the aisle

? Wedding party waiting at the altar

? Groom walking down the aisle

? Bride and Dad

? Close-up of bride just before she makes her

entrance

? Bride and groom at the altar

? Altar or canopy from the back during ceremony

? Wide shot of audience during ceremony, from bride

and groom's point of view

? Faces of bride and groom as they exchange vows

? Close-up of bride's and groom's hands as they

exchange rings

? The kiss

? Bride and groom proceeding up the aisle, guests'

smiling faces at their sides

? Bride and groom outside ceremony site

? Congrats shots: bride and groom hugging, laughing,

and crying with good friends and family

 

Before the Reception (During the Cocktail Hour)

 

? Bride and groom together

? Bride with her happy, proud parents and/or

stepparents

? Bride with her entire immediate family

? Groom with his happy, proud parents and/or

stepparents

? Groom with his entire immediate family

? Bride and groom with all parents

? Bride and groom with immediate family members from

both sides

? Bride and groom with groomsmen

? Bride and groom with bridesmaids

? Bride and groom with whole wedding party

The Reception

 

? Shot from outside reception site (to set the tone)

? Reception details such as place cards, guest book,

centerpieces, decorations, table settings, favors

table, and champagne glasses

? Bride and groom arriving (make it dramatic -- their

faces through the dark limo windows, the two lovebirds

atop a staircase or pushing through a curtain)

? Receiving line moments

? Bride and groom at head table

? Parents' table

? Guests' tables

? Close-up of friends and family making toasts

? Bride and groom sipping champagne

? Bride's and groom's parents whispering to each

other during dinner

? Bride and groom chatting up the guests

? Bride and groom's first dance (maybe with a slow

shutter speed so the movement blurs the image a

little)

? Parents dancing

? Bride and Dad dancing

? Groom and Mom dancing

? Wedding party dancing

? Grandparents dancing

? Kids playing or dancing

? Musicians or DJ doing their thing

? Guests going nuts on the dance floor (again, slow

shutter speed could be effective)

? Bride laughing with bridesmaids

? Cake table

? Bride and groom cutting the cake

? Bride and groom feeding each other cake

? Dessert table

? Bouquet toss (perhaps a vertical shot from in front

of the bride)

? Tossing and catching of the garter

? Bride and groom leaving, waving from getaway car's

backseat

? Rear of car departing

 

By pond

By fence

Near different flowers

With horse

Rings inside of a flower

Hands on Bible

Silly pictures

Groom carrying Bride

Sand Ceremony

[ibdnzgr]

Things like the bouquet toss. I typically shoot it from an audience view.. bride on one side tossing to the mob of single girls on the other side. I saw a photo recently, shot with the bride facing the camera and tossing the flowers back over her head and the photo captured her expression and the flurry of activity behind her. That is what I'm going to be doing on the next wedding.

 

ID

[ibdnzgr]

BTW.. nice portfolio William. I love your use of angles and blurred images... plenty of photoshop but hice effects.

 

Ian

[edsel_adams]

A business that seeks to suit it's owner soon fails. Your clients are your boss, and they ultimately decide what you do. How often I see someone open their "dream business". And that dreams falls flat, because it was "their" dream, not their customers.

 

 

It is quite arrogant, and bad business, to say, "" They need to just trust us! I specify in my contracts and on my web site anyway that I don't guarantee any specific shots"".

 

 

You need to remember that they hired you to capture what they want, not what you want.

[fotografz]

Respectfully disagree Edsel.

 

Each company from cars to cameras to food, to clothes ... to just about any service,

constructs their selling proposition and places it in the marketplace. The customer is then

free to pick and choose from all these different approaches.

 

Your clients may be your boss, and that suits your way of seeing things which is your

obviously passionate prerogative. I am my own boss, and my clients collaborate with me to

record their wedding day ... I do take into account their personality and quirks because

that is how each wedding is defined as being unique. Collaboration means that I do listen

to them, and they to me. Didactically telling me when, where, and how to shoot says they

are the expert, not me, so there isn't a partnership with them and I am just their servant.

 

The job of recording the wedding day naturally includes many events which we often call

"must haves". However, an extensive laundry list forgoes any spontaneity, and can lead to

disappointment upon delivery because Brides have no idea what is involved, and are

almost always overly ambitious when providing lists.

[edsel_adams]

Certainly we all are our own bosses. But only if the public wants to pay for what we can do. How long would a PJ shooter have survived in a few years ago's marketplace?

 

 

I'm a wedding photographer that was trained in the portrait studio, and I look at the majority of PJ work as "snap shots". The main reason for this, is that most of the so called PJ shooters haven't the skills or the "eye" for the job.

 

 

 

When I came up through the "ranks". One had to have a large skill set, along with many years of hobby shooting, and or a degree. Just to assist a master shooter.

 

 

 

 

If the public knew how little most PJ (and start up) wedding photographers have put into learning their craft. They'd run for the hills.

 

 

 

Things like shot lists have to be discussed at the sales meeting(s). And the photgrapher needs to clarify that this isn't their style(or that they don't know how to shoot wedding "formals").

[steve_crist]

Edsel:

 

"A business that seeks to suit it's owner soon fails. Your clients are your boss, and they ultimately decide what you do." Right on. Again the customer is the boss thus they're right. If I go to a car dealership wanting a red 2-door and they try to sell me a green mini-van, I'm the fool if I let them boss me. People must realize the customer has options and one of them is walking out the door if I'm not responsive to their needs.

[think27]

Ian - I agree that her list is daunting and way to "specific".

 

She has not just asked for "must have" general shots like "Bride getting ready", "guys getting ready", "processional", "Ceremony", "vows", "kiss", "candids of cocktail hour", "first dance", "candids of guests at reception"..... She has actually created "moments" that almost will have to be posed!

 

For instance: "Bride and groom arriving (make it dramatic -- their faces through the dark limo windows, the two lovebirds atop a staircase or pushing through a curtain)"

 

Wow. I would very kindly and carefully sit her down and explain that I can't and don't "create" emotion or mood in my work. What I do is "capture" the moments that are real. I would explain that they are not "models" and therefore, any attempt on my part to "produce" the day will more than likely come across as stillted because they will be "acting" for the camera rather than enjoying their day as things unfold.

 

I would explain that every wedding I shoot is different due to the way things unfold and that there is usually no time to produce a very staged/contrived wedding "story".

 

I would then give her a list which she can check off her "Priorities" for candids and an actual real shot list for the formals. I would tell her that I have an idea from her original list of what she is "going for" and will try to "find" those artsy/drama moments for her as the day progresses.

 

Good luck.

[russ_konrad]

>>> I'm a wedding photographer that was trained in the portrait studio, and I look at the majority of PJ work as "snap shots". The main reason for this, is that most of the so called PJ shooters haven't the skills or the "eye" for the job.<<<<

 

>>>> If the public knew how little most PJ (and start up) wedding photographers have put into learning their craft. They'd run for the hills. <<<<<

 

Well said!!!

 

I would personally be embarrassed by what many "photo-journalistic" style photographers post on their websites! Snapshots as "art"!

[fotografz]

The car dealership analogy isn't applicable here. Photographers have a style and approach

that defines their product. The analogy would fit if the car dealership were selling sports

cars and the customer came in looking for a luxury sedan ... so using the proposed logic

that the customer is always right, the salesman would need to sell them a product they

don't have.

 

Edsel, you have your POV which is fine. However, disparaging other approaches like Pj

doesn't make your way the right way for everyone. There were also some pretty bad

traditional shooters back in the day.

 

You ask how a PJ shooter would have survived in the marketplace a few years ago? I ask in

return whether PJ would have come into being at all, if all we did was what was

expected and had done before? The ones that brought PJ into the mainstream seem to

have done pretty well. Pretty darned nice "snapshots" if you ask me.

[sandra_schaffer]

Ste... I mean EDSEL... how many weddings do YOU have booked this year considering your style and your POV towards different styles than your work??

 

"You can't please all of the people all of the time."

 

For instance, you may love Starbucks Cappucino but Hate Quiznos Subs. However, in spite of your likes and dislikes, both chains are very successful.

 

Same with wedding photography. You are not going to capture every sale, not matter how desparately you need to or try to. Some customers won't like your work or they won't like you or they won't like the color of your car or something and they will walk away and find a different photographer.

 

You, as the photographer, can also choose to not take on a customer who makes requests you don't like or cannot live up to.

[katieontario]

This is a great thread, first of all.

 

Second, I am thinking we are all agreeing to disagree: I assume MOST weddings unfold the same with slight variations - bride walks down aisle, groom reacts, readings, vows, rings,kiss, etc etc. MOST are very predictable. With this said, depending upon the expereince of the photographer, and whether one is pro or anti "list", I think the majority of us know the important moments to snap.

 

However, if I am unfamiliar with a minister's format, or a traditional custom of any particular culture or religion, I personally want to know when to expect it, and what cues I have prior to get ready - and I'd prefer something I am not familiar with on paper.

 

We get a very generic list of moments to capture - most are unarguable, as we would get it anyway. Our couples have never demanded anything from us with said list, and therefore trust our creative eye and experience as to capturing said list in a unique way - different lenses, different angles, etc.

 

Also, I still do not believe the customer is always right - esp. if this concerns our set business practices, standards, expectations, etc. I have firmed this in my heart after listening to a FANTASTIC interview with Mike Colon concerning "the integrity" of a photographer's business.

 

However, this does not mean that we are not flexible or do not compromise. And if we potentially lose a client? Perhaps that relationship was not meant to be anyhow, and we do not become concerned whether we can/could have booked that date or not.

 

A healthy percentage of our weddings this year and next are word-of-mouth - affirming both the operation and product of our business.

[katieontario]

Mike Colon interview -

 

https://pictageevents.webex.com/mw0303l/mywebex/default.do?siteurl=pictageevents

 

Mostly regarding pricing, but other really good photography business practices.

 

Hopefully that link works.

[edsel_adams]

I'm old school , and still shoot medium format and 35mm film. I sell the fact that I shoot formals. And I sell the fact that I know how to do them fast! This is a learned skill. If a bride wanted an all PJ album, they'd be better off hiring someone besides me.

 

 

 

Even though I have worked at weddings and in portrait studios, and shot news for several small newspapers. I don't feel comfortable giving brides work that doesn't look "professional". And IMHO, a lot of snap shots in a book isn't a "wedding album".

[heatherlassell]

>>>I don't feel comfortable giving brides work that doesn't >>>look "professional". And IMHO, a lot of snap shots in a book >>>isn't a "wedding album".

 

I think it is very insulting to photojournalists work not professional and just a bunch of snapshots. Have you ever looked at the Wedding Photojournalism Association website? http://www.wpja.com/ You tell me that those are not 'professional' pictures? They are gorgeous.

 

There is nothing wrong with a photographer stating that they are not going to stage and do plenty of 'staged' pictures. A wedding is an event....it just happens. It isn't a play. I respect both forms of photography. I am in the process of planning my wedding and I have found a photographer that does a perfect blend of the 2 styles. I have come across many that stage all there pictures, and many that won't do any formals at all. To each his own!

[steve_newberry___northern_]

We get these once in a while usually a week before the wedding.

I have a standard response that I got from Allegra and/or Laura Novak.

Anyway it says something to the effect that if you are reading off a list then we might be missing moments you hired us to capture.

Also since each group shot takes approx 4 to 5 min to

gather all the people together please allow 5 min approx for each group shot. So 30 group shots= approx 2hrs. Once they hear this they trim down the group shots. It's not their fault but it's our job

to educate them.

[starkitty]

Ian,

 

I have received many, many versions of your "must have" list with the exact same wording! I wonder which magazine or wedding planning book is the culprit? I understand that brides have an idea of the type of images they like beforehand, but this publisher is doing many people a disservice.

 

 

This pre-fab list has some high expectations -

 

Groom with his arm affectionately around best man

 

Dad whispering last-minute advice to groom ?

 

Bride's and groom's parents whispering to each other during dinner ?

 

What if these things never occur? Or what if I'm busy trying to fufill

another request on this long list when it does?

 

 

Bride and groom separately making their way to the ceremony (in a limo backseat, hailing a cab, walking down the street/hall/stairs) (This may require being in two zipcodes at once)

 

Altar or canopy from the back during ceremony ? (If I tried this in a church, many officiants would give me a look that I would drop dead from)

 

I've talked with brides about this list when I receive it, and they all reassure me it's just a general idea of what they are looking for. That always makes me feel a lot better, and free to capture the spontaneous images they liked on my website in the first place! It's nice to know you aren't doomed to fall short of the mark in a customer's eyes because of some editor who has never photographed an event!

[larry_moore]

This is an ongoing issue for so many of us! Maybe we could pay TheKnot and other wedding mags to not print these things.

On a funnier note I got a list from a bride last season which was about ten pages long-this from someone who when she booked stated that she loved what she had seen of my work and trusted me to just capture the day as ithappened. When I called her to try and figure out what her concern was I discovered that she had gone through all the images posted in my recentevents section and listed the ones she liked! Needless to say we went back to the original plan.

What I have found is that knowing who are the most important people to capture in some form is way more important than the "atmosphere photo list". As a photogrpaher who over the years has done newspaper work, fine art and portraiture I emphasise to the clients that it will be a mix on the day and that the style of their event will dictate in large part what the photos will look like. Hard to be spontaneous if the family expects endless combos with the extended relatives.

Brooke Moore

[ibdnzgr]

I agree. I actually state on my site that my samples are NOT to be considered a "catalog" of

my work and that every wedding is different. I like brides to let me know specific shots that

are important to them. Maybe it is a pose they grew up seeing on the wall of their own

parents' wedding. At any rate, thanks for all the input and yes, I do take these lists with a

grain of salt and suggest the brides do the same. I mix a lot of graphic design into my

photography and I also rely on old fashioned technique. One bride exclaimed that she just

loved how I made the background blurry on some of the photos and just loved that

"style." (apparently something pointandshooters can't do very well).