To Ivan and Giles and all critiques.

[travis2]

Ivan, thx for replying. Yes, I think I do not have the background knowledge to understand your photo. Im sure there is one, and a great one with LULU ;) . ok, did I mentioned the tone of the pic was great???;))))

Keep them coming!!

 

<p>

 

 

Giles: With regards to your misunderstanding with some of us, just let me say this when u make a critique.

 

<p>

 

When anyone post a pic for critique or sharing, it is obvious that they think it is a grea pic or something worth sharing. Or else, why else would anyone post? Would anyone post a DULL pic on purpose?

 

<p>

 

So, when u critique a photo, be it bad or good, please be constructive as best as u could.

 

<p>

 

When u say " This photo does nothing for me" . Fine. But show us an example of something that does. Or else, why should we care if it does anything for u or not? I mean, the poster would not know what does for u and he/she did not post a pic just to suit u.

 

<p>

 

If u dislike a photo, just say something that can improve a photo. Please dun say things like " This photo should go to the family album" etc. This says nothing about the photo but only your likings.

 

<p>

 

Like u said, this forum is for different opinions. But we can make this better by supporting each other's work, right?

 

<p>

 

Im sure u dun make WOW pics everytime, so why should u be so bold at times? We can help each other by asking questions about techniques and compositions, but we can destroy each other more easily by saying " THIS PIC DOES NOTHING FOR ME"

 

<p>

 

And im of the opinion that if one does not regularly post pics for critiques, their comments should be even less harsh.

 

<p>

 

I mean, how do we know how good your work is and why should we agree that our work is bad just because u said so?

 

<p>

 

Show us something, so we can learn from u too, GILES.;)

[travis2]

This is a new pic for a new beginning. FLAME ME!!;)

 

<p>

 

<IMG SRC="

http://www.photo.net/photodb/image-display?photo_id=692410&size=md">

 

<p>

 

This may be a dull pic to some, but it means something to me. So dun

ask me to trash it or send to the family album. If u think its trash,

show me something I can improve on. Thx.

 

<p>

 

 

Another reason to use Illford Pan F plus iso 50. Shot with M4p 35

asph cron at f2 1/125...see the DOF?? ;)

[Spearhead]

I have found that the comment "this photo does nothing for me" is

quite useful. If the person who says it has obvious tastes (and I

know little about the apparent debate here), I know that the photo

doesn't appeal to someone with those tastes. I have to either find

a different way to express myself to that person or ignore them as

an audience for my work. Some people are able to provide very

detailed critiques, and some a one-liner. It simply reflects the

differences between people.

 

<p>

 

If you want a deep critique with a lot of insight on improvement,

take a class with a good teacher.

 

<p>

 

For what it's worth, the shot above does very little for me. It has

a distracted composition, a lighting problem on the left hand side,

and the subject isn't made any more interesting than it would be in

person.

[travis2]

Thx Jeff...would u even attempt shooting it?

[travis2]

Btw Jeff, I do not know and have not seen a lot of work by people

making critiques here, so the phrase" this does nothing for me"

really does nothing for me. ;)

 

<p>

 

 

And as a beginner, I wanna know whats the right way to go by getting

good advice and not one liners like "crap photo" like Phil Kneen

emailed me about the gal in the sand.

 

<p>

 

Im sure u r a great photographer, I have seen your work. So your

taste is obviously of high standards.

 

<p>

 

As much as Im willing to develop my own style and techniques, Im

willing to learn from u.

 

<p>

 

 

regards..

[mark_lewis2]

I think that adding something constructive is appropriate when

there is something in the presented photo that can be capitalized

upon. If there is really nothing of merit in the photo for the viewer,

stating that a given image "does nothing for me" is simply an

honest opinion.

 

<p>

 

As was stated above, if you really want only constructive

comments on every shot you present to the group, enroll in photo

class somewhere - but be forewarned, photo classes get rather

into deconstructing images as well, and other students will

happily tell you that your image "does nothing for them". I would

assume that anyone posting an image here would be prepared

for some honest, and sometimes harsh, opinions.

 

<p>

 

If you can't take the opinions expressed here, just try going down

to one of the larger ad agencies in your city and having their

art-buyer look through you work. I think you'll find that peoples

opionions here are actually rather tempered in their judgement

compared to people who critique (buy) photos daily .

[preston_merchant]

It might be helpful if those folks posting images would offer a

sentence or two about the context of the photo, or their intention,

or a certain aspect of the photo they would like a comment on, etc.

 

<p>

 

If Travis' shot here is intended as a fine art shot, comments might

go one way. If it is the track of a Taliban jeep leaving a bombed-

out village, comments might go another way.

 

<p>

 

My point here is not that certain comments or types of criticism

should be forestalled, or that honest, personal reactions should not

be tendered, just that if the poster is looking for something

specific for the forum--something to help him with his craft--he

should ask for it.

[travis2]

Thx Mark.

 

<p>

 

Its not that I can't take expressed opinions here. This is not an art

gallery, so what I'd really wanted is for all of us to support each

other by being nicer to each other.

 

<p>

 

I know opinions can be harsh, and sometimes too honest it can be

insulting. I believe no one, including yourself, likes that.

 

<p>

 

This is a Leica forum and If I'd read the forum objectives correctly,

it was formed so that every one of us can benefit from the joy of

using Leicas.

 

<p>

 

We are not competing against each other by posting pics here . So why

not make it an HONEST but FRIENDLY environment?

 

<p>

 

If everyone who needs a critique needs to take a photo class, then

what is this forum for? This is the place, I firmly believe to share

our ups and downs and some of our screw-ups and good work.

 

<p>

 

 

Opinions can be honest and at the same time fun to read. That makes

learning fun. And that would make more people post their work.

 

<p>

 

 

Isn't that what this forum is all about?

 

<p>

 

 

 

<p>

 

regards..;)

[roger_michel]

travis -- i really think you have it wrong here. if someone submits

something specifically for critique (and not just to share), i think

the poster really has to check his ego at the door. my assumption in

such cases is that the poster does not want a pat on the back, but

wants to know how a pic can be made better. i think you are wrong

when you say people post shots they like and think are swell. i

usually ask for critiques when i know a photo has failed, and would

like to understand better why. as for the phrase "this photo does

nothing for me," i think the others have it rite. in my view, photos

need to elicit an immediate response from the viewer to suck you in.

there can (should) be much more nuance and further levels of meaning

once you begin to study the work, but there has to be that initial

hook. if a phot leaves you cold at first glance, you generally

aren't going to take the time to look at it further. as for your

tire tracks in the sand, it also does nothing for me. i think this

shot is crying out for large format treatment. lay the plane of

focus on the ground so it's sharp from front to back, and really go

to town with the texture and tonality of the sand. if this shot

scores, it will be as a fine art photo only. as an image, it is

simply not that inspiring. i do like the perspective though.

[travis2]

Thx Preston, I think u've made a good point. We should try to ask for

what we want and not just blindly post.

 

<p>

 

 

Sometimes when I post a pic as a form of sharing a nice moment, I

believe GILES said :" Should we thank you for sharing this with

us?" .

 

<p>

 

Well, that's what I find discouraging. I know we should sometimes

share our pics in PHOTONET only, by who sets the rules here?

 

<p>

 

If Im the forum host, I would strongly encourage EVERYONE to post!

 

<p>

 

"u dun learn until u see, u dun see until u learn"

[gerald_widen]

Travis, this does very little for me for a few reasons. There is no

subject no story being told here just tire tracks. Maybe if there were

skid marks I could think something might of happened like an accident.

If you were attempting a photo with a strong visual impact to me at

least it falls short there also. The tones ,textures and perspective

you were trying to create is only mildly interesting. Since you asked

<a

href="http://www.photo.net/photodb/top-rated-photographer-photos?user_

id=278293">HERE</a> is a link to some of my photos, I'm sure some of

them will "do nothing" for you and other people here which is OK.

[travis2]

Roger, very good point there. U had me thinking again!;)

 

<p>

 

When I post something, I dun usually think its the best. My usual

mentality was to show people here "hey, look what I've got ".

 

<p>

 

I dun really wanna know how good or how bad it is. But good advice on

improvements or what should not have been done would certainly be of

great help.

 

<p>

 

But when people say "hey...are u waiting for us to say your pic is

good?", it makes me not wanting to post anymore.

 

<p>

 

If I'd wanted a teacher, this would not be the place. This is the

place where I think I can find people with a common interest.

 

<p>

 

But obviously my thinking is wrong.

 

<p>

 

 

BUT, you've made a very good point! I should also learn whats good

and whats bad by FIRST GLANCE.

 

<p>

 

 

by my point really is just to have fun here.

 

<p>

 

I hope everyone will...life is tough as we speak..;)

[michael_darnton1]

My general thoughts on what you've said--

 

<p>

 

What one often sees when people initially into photography is that

the first step is that they begin to see things which they never saw

before (for some reason, boring photos of fire hydrants and kittens

are common first subjects), and now think, in their minds, are cool,

so they take what are basically visual notes, not real photographs.

For a shorter or longer time, many new photographers continue this,

shooting pictures of their ideas, without really making them tickle

the eyeballs instead of the mind. It would be like if you just bought

a piano, and liked the sound so much you just sat there tapping keys

to hear the sound--but it wouldn't be music.

 

<p>

 

When new photographers are at that point, it's hard to critize their

work--it would be like criticizing an author's notes on napkins. It

would be almost a given that those notes "wouldn't do anything for

me", because they aren't a complete piece, nor are they formed enough

to comment on.

 

<p>

 

At some point or another, a photographer get beyond the joy of just

seeing new things, and does more with what he sees. I think it's

probably difficult for one to work through that point, and I'm not

sure it can be pushed from outside, however once in a while, a

neophyte shoots something which is almost a picture, and then someone

with a better eye can suggest little changes and crops that would

bring it all together, and perhaps the photographer sees the

difference, something clicks, and the next picture is better.

 

<p>

 

So "it doesn't do anything for me" is perhaps just a coded way of

saying that there's not much raw material there to work on with

constructive criticism, and it's time to put up something else,

instead, that critics can get their teeth into.

 

<p>

 

Have you spent any time looking at photos by some of the real

traditional masters (for me the models of subtle composition, though

they don't hit the spot every time, are Cartier-Bresson and Eugene

Smith) to try to understand what it is about the visual layout of

their photos, beyond and not considering subject matter, that makes

them effective?

[michael_darnton1]

The photo you've posted above doesn't do anything for me. :-) :-) :-)

[giles_poilu]

Travis, I will make no comment on the photo as I afraid whatever I

say good or bad will be jumped on. The vast majority of the comments

I post are technical points regarding equipment/technique etc not

complaints as might be concluded from some recent exchanges.

 

<p>

 

As I said earlier I have posted pictures on this forum some time ago -

some liked them, some didn't - taste and opinions differ amongst us

all I am pleased to say. That is what makes this forum so

interesting.

 

<p>

 

The fact remains however that if one is willing to post a photo for

opinions he must be willing to take the rough with the smooth.

Judging from some comments above others seem to feel the same way.

 

<p>

 

Actually I will say, I like this photograph, gosh! - yes, it has

depth, interest and just plain appeals to me - I like it others don't

but let's all be free to express an opinion without being jumped on.

[travis2]

Gerry thx.

 

<p>

 

I visited your site. I would not say all of them "did nothing for me"

but the point really is : behind every image , there's a story.

 

<p>

 

Sometimes it srike us, sometimes not.

 

<p>

 

But I believe SHARING the images is the most important if we are to

all improve.

 

<p>

 

I like looking at others' portfolios. It makes me think. I dun

usually critique as I believe there is a story behind all of them. So

what I say to each photo would not really do justice to the pictures

or the photographers.

 

<p>

 

I think Leicas can do wonderful things. I need to share and wanna see

what beautiful things the people here did with them.

 

<p>

 

That's pretty much my intentions. TO SHARE.

[mark_lewis2]

I love my mother but all of her support and ooh's and aah's over

my images have never helped to improve my craft. If what you are

looking for are just nice warm fuzzy feelings, I can suggest a few

good Cabernets that fail to disappoint.

 

<p>

 

If we go about setting the bar too low to which we compare

ourselves, are we really accomplishing anything? I don't feel in

competition with anyone on this site as you have suggested. Nor

do I necessarily find this forum to be the best place to have

photos critiqued, as the merits of the judges are a bit hard to

ascertain. However, when you defensively call for someone who

has given comments on your images to put something up for the

rest of us to see, you automatically make it a competition

between you and he/she.

 

<p>

 

I find some of the technical info on this site helpful and some of

the critiques rather amusing in how they are recieved by the

people whos images are being evaluated. Without fail, an

image is posted and the person gets defensive about the first

post that fails to call it the "best image they have ever seen".

 

<p>

 

Support from fellow shooters is all well and good, but post an

image knowing full well that people will view it with a critical eye.

We all have seen thousands of images, I would worry if we didn't

start to become critical viewers after a while.

[travis2]

GILES!!!!!!! ;)

 

<p>

 

hey buddy..I know u as an honest bold but honest guy. You have great

judgement and have perculiar tastes. I acknowledge that.

 

<p>

 

Being me, I just want u to know that it doesn't really matter to me

if u like my or anyone else's pics posted here. I just want everyone

to share and go home happy about being able to post.

 

<p>

 

"u did something for me" with your kind response.

 

<p>

 

 

regards...

[travis2]

MARK, my pic above has been here for nearly an hour, and so far none

have said its good to their eyes.

 

<p>

 

DO U SEE ME GETTING DEFENSIVE?;)

 

<p>

 

In fact I like honest answers, if u dun like it, there is nothing I

can do. But just MAKE IT FUN FOR ME.;)

 

<p>

 

COMMON, after a hard day's work, this really seems like a place where

we can make fun of each other's work, isn't it? ;)

 

<p>

 

 

 

<p>

 

FYI: the image above was a test of the new film Im using. I wanted

DOF in bright sunny days. And I got it with the Pan F. That's the

story.

 

<p>

 

No art work, no snap, Just honest photography. ;)

[Spearhead]

<i>Thx Jeff...would u even attempt shooting it? </i><p>

 

It wouldn't fit with what I do, but if I did..I would look for a way

to put more expression into it. With "path" photos, it's necessary

to either a) go somewhere, of b) go nowhere. This one does

neither. In addition, it's hurt by the second set of tracks.<p>

 

Consider a different perspective and a way of making the path do

something.

[travis2]

Thx Roger, your response is exactly the kind Im looking for.

 

<p>

 

regards..

[travis2]

A different perspective..

 

<p>

 

<IMG SRC="http://www.photo.net/photodb/image-display?

photo_id=692532&size=lg">

 

<p>

 

 

My contrast is off as the sun was coming in strong from the left. A

little flare perhaps?

 

<p>

 

I think the composition can be improved.

[christopher_goodwin]

Travis seems to have contracted a virus which may be

contagious on this forum: acquired scanner proficiency

syndrome. When combined with a paper-thin skin it can prove

fatal.

[travis2]

Looking at the above, it'll take time, it'll take time..to reach the

forum objectives..;)

[christopher_goodwin]

And what are the forum objectives, Travis?