lens diameter vs shutter speed in rangefinder cameras

[puck]

from experience i have found that hand held i have to have the shutter speed

on par or higher than lens diameter when shooting hand held. this seems to be

the case with my olympus om40 slr. when using the 50mm zuiko i have gone down

to 1/30th but the best pictures are 1/60th or above with this lens.

 

without the mirror slap on a rangefinder, what speed could i realistically get

away with a 35mm lens on a bessa r? would it go below 1/30th and still provide

acceptable results?

[vics]

I have found that just about the same rule applies with my Leica M3, but that I can fudge that a stop or two successfully when shooting with My Contax IIIa. I don't know why I seem able to hole the Contax still at the slow speeds, but I can. The point being that it seems to matter which camera you're using.

[pico]

diameter?

[blowingsky]

I have taken sharp pictures at an 8th of a second with a 50mm summicron at 2.8. ANYTHING below 125th on any M lens and I am making sure that I am steady.

[andrew robertson]

I think it has more to do with technique than the camera used. The lack of mirror slap may

help a tiny bit but it isn't as huge an improvement as some of the nuts here would have you

think.

[canfred]

With mirror slap its always the exposure time. Most shots taken will be faster than 1/125 the fact is at this speed the mirror has not reached its resting place while the shutter has run its course.

So no mirror slap here. However on the extreme side my old Exakta

with its very long exposure times is incapable of taking a sharp photo. Not even locked on a tripod.I do not understand where the lens diameter fits into this. The rule of thumb you hear always was fit shutter speed to lenght that is a 300mm should be fine with 1/300 sec

my experience is this is not so.

Manfred

[mike dixon]

<i>what speed could i realistically get away with a 35mm lens on a bessa r?</i><P>

I have no idea what speeds <b>you</b> can get away with. If I've had plenty of sleep and maybe a drink or three, I can handhold a 35 down to about 1/10th; if I've had a few cups of coffee, I need to keep the shutter faster than 1/50th.

[winfried_buechsenschuetz1]

"With mirror slap its always the exposure time. Most shots taken will be faster than 1/125 the fact is at this speed the mirror has not reached its resting place while the shutter has run its course."

 

I am not sure whether this can be true. All SLR cameras I have seen have an internal latch mechanism which starts the shutter just when the mirror has reached its final (rest) position. Everything else would not make sense, since the mirror would still be in the light path when the shutter fires earlier.

 

Anyhow, I found that with most non-SLR cameras I can make shots down to 1/15 sec, provided it is an old all-metal camera body with a lot of inertia.

[andrew robertson]

It's the momentum that is transferred into the camera by having the shutter swing up and

down that causes the hand shake. Since this motion is spread out over a period of time that

includes the exposure, it is unavoidable. But I don't think modern 35mm cameras (i.e. since

the 1960's) are really prone to excessive mirror slap. It would be interesting to rig up a

device to measure the motion produced by different SLR cameras, though!

[ronald_moravec1]

It depends on the mirror design. Most Leicas have mirror dampening systems that slow it near the end of the upward travel. Little shake is imparted. R4 and 5 being the exception.

 

Cheaper foam strip dampened models shake terribly. My old Pentax screw models will not work hand held at all any speed, if I was critical.

 

I have made rangefinder shots down to 1/4 sec that were useable. But you have to tighten the strap, push the camera against your head, and stand properly. Basically the rifle marksman standing position.

 

For normal use, 1/125 is best. With some care, 1/30. If you are sloppy, 1/1000 will not be sharp.

[charles_stobbs3]

It also depends on how large the result. With a Retina (leaf shutter) and Kodachrome for slide projection at least 1/250 or faster gave consistently good results.

[christopher_a._junker1]

Per Ron and Charles. I'm using a Kiev(ContaxII-III copy)and 1/50th is about it with 50 lenses, even with one of Tom Abrahammson's soft releases. Any coffee, Classic Co-- or wind moves the shutter speed up to 1/125 at least. The Abrahamsson Soft Release possibly make Leica M's workable down to 1/30 with 5.0 cm lenses.

[vivek iyer]

I find my sample of Bessa R to be worse than my Bessa L. A beat up Kiev II (or something of that sort) has a silky smooth shutter.

 

I use some very large diameter lenses (filter thread >90mm) on my Epson R-D1s which has a much quieter shutter and no sensor movement. This allows for hand holdability at very low shutter speeds.

 

Other Leica's with cloth shutters perform much better in my hands, with both large and small diameter lenses.

[neilambrose]

<p>I think a word that may be missing from your post is 'consistently'. Depending on the

situation it is possible to shoot extremely slow speeds on a rangefinder. I can't speak for a

Bessa, but a few days ago I surprised myself by taking a shot at 1/6th on my M7 which I

fully expected to have movement blur. Far from it: not only was it not blurred, it was more

than acceptably sharp.</p>

 

<p>So I've learned that with care it's possible to shoot very slow speeds on occasion, but

probably not consistently. But even so, I routinely shoot down to 1/15th with a 28mm

lens. A lot may depend on your choice of film speed and the light in the scene; low speed

film will show movement much more than high speed film due to resolution, and shots in

low light will disguise minor camera movement more than shots that are well lit. And don't

forget also than your view of what's acceptably sharp depends on the required final

enlargement.</p>

[02Pete]

While the answers vary from person to person, it's fairly typical for 1/30 to be a usable hand-held shutter speed with a 35mm lens, and 1/60 to be a usable hand-held shutter speed with a 50mm, 75mm or 90mm lens. If you are in a situation with relatively dim available light, and the speed of the film and maximum aperture of the lens are such that you are going to have to shoot at a shutter speed lower than 1/30, look for something solid and immovable (a building wall, a tree, a phone pole, a parked car) to lean and brace yourself and the camera against. One can sometimes get away with 1/15, 1/8 or even 1/4 using this method. Alternatively, try buying film with an ISO speed of 800 or higher (Kodak T-Max 3200 is great if you can find it), or push-processing B/W film, so that you can shoot at 1/30 or higher and still obtain adequate exposure.

[Rob F.]

Begin with proper stance: feet placed about 1 foot (30cm) apart, or a little wider; elbows braced at your sides; camera resting in the heel of the right hand; camera held with both hands. Cmaera is pressed firmly against forehead. Use proper breathing: take a deep breath and exhale halfway out. Then hold your breath and <i><b>squeeze</i></b> the shutter release by exerting downward pressure on the release button while at the same time exerting upward pressure on the bottom of the camera with the heel of your hand. See if you don't get a sharp picture at 1/15. Try 1/8 when you think you are steady enough. Yes the rangefinder is better at slow speeds. It is partly mirror slap, but partly it is the interruption in vision that makes the SLR worse at slow speeds, for me. Continuous vision gives me real-time visual feedback that helps me remain steady.

[liviu]

diameter? you mean focal length? for a 35mm lens has either 39mm, 46mm or 52mm diameter in the summicron, summilux asph and nokton incarnations.

i dont think the diameter is relevant for other criteria than viewfinder comfort issues. i reckon same focal with different diameters should behave quite the same, up to a certain point.

[richard_hopkins]

From tests I did many years ago, mirror slap is only a problem at slowish speeds between 1/8sec and 1/30sec. This is regardless of lens focal length or a number of other factors, particularly how steady your hands are, or how steady your stance is.

 

At shorter speeds, mirror slap is obviously reduced, usually to an insignificant level.

 

At longer speeds, the brief period of mirror slap vibration becomes a less significant proportion of the overall exposure, and is thus masked.

 

With modern lenses with IS and VR, this feature should eliminate mirror slap at all speeds.

 

Richard.

[christopher_a._junker1]

This is one of the times that dry shooting practice really pays off. The above comments on bracing and breath control are important as well as following through to stay braced even after the release. Practicing at the slower shutter speeds will also carry over to shooting at the higher speeds and lead to fewer blurred shots.