HP Z3100 for first digital printer?

[gan_esh]

Hi.

 

I have an old friend who is a pretty accomplished photorapher. He's been in

the fine-art photography business for at least 25 years. Up until Feb/Mar last

year he has shot all his work on 4x5/8x10/Mamiya7 and printed by hand in his

darkroom (gravure, platinum...etc.).

 

Since then he has slowly converted to digital starting with drum-scanning his

slides/negs, learning photoshop, monitor calibration, and all the other

digital related stuff (I helped him a bit along the way but mostly from lots

of good books). He now has a MF digital system and is probably going to sell

his LF set soon. The only step he hasn't covered is printing.

 

Yesterday, he told me he was looking at getting the new HP Z3100 12 ink 24"

printer and asked me if it was ok to start with something so 'high-caliber'. I

didn't give him a clear answer.

 

You see, I was in the same position he is in a couple of years ago. I got a

D2x, upgraded my computer, learned Photoshop from scratch, learned

calibration, bought a few good books, upgraded my computer again, downloaded

plug-ins...blah, blah....and was pretty 'okay' 3/4 months later. Then I bought

an Epson 4800 printer and started learning printing. I took me at least a

month or two before I got my first satisfactory print. Soon after I got

someone to do custom paper profiles on a spectro-thing-a-ma-jig and things

really started to improve for me. I now feel comfortable selling my work

because I know I can deliver similar(better?) quality to my old darkroom

prits. Ifeel I've been fortunate compared with some others who have had many

more problems than I have. I may have avoided some of the problems associated

with digital printing by accident....heh.

 

So, what should I tell him? The guy in white on my right shoulder tells me to

make him start small and get an Epson 2400 type printer and learn all the

quirks of digital printing and then upgrade to something better in future. The

guy in red on my left is saying to make him get the HP so that I can go over

to his place to use it.

 

Printing has definately been the most difficult part of my digital-plunge, but

I feel that the Z3100, with its superb interface and built in paper-profilng

hardware would make things a whole lot easier for him.

 

Sorry for the long post.

 

Thanks in advance. Cheers...

[philfx]

I would listen to RED. The color profiles that it makes for each paper is what every other printer is missing. So people buy the color proofing hardware and software to adjust the colors to the paper and printer with a profile. This is built into the printer. As long as it can hold that profile long enough or you can feed it a preprinted one then it should be the way to go. I have used the 4800, and now I have the older HP, and at first I was so disapointed in the HP, until I got a profile built, now I just laugh at myself for being soooo Pro Epson, because at one time they were the top, and all 3 printers on my desk were Epson, and I always used Epson, until a few moths ago I switched to HP, as just about everyone but a coule warned me against it. I couldnt be happier with my HP printer...and I was in the need of a printer for color proofs!

[beauh44]

Hi Gan, Just my .02 cent's: I have an HP 7960 and Epson 2200 and recently bought Epson's new 3800. I have *never* been able to get the HP-supplied profiles to produce an accurate color print. (Its B&W output is superb though) It's also only an 8.5X11" printer.

 

I realize I could get custom profiles made that would likely cure my problem with the HP but at $40 bucks a pop from Kathy's Profiles and a several-week turn-around time, I wasn't too happy about that. I can't comprehend why HP can't seem to get their profiles right when their printers are very good. I've been in touch with other HP 7960 owners with exactly the same problem.

 

My new Epson 3800, right out of the box *nailed* it - colors, that is, on my Gretag-Macbeth calibrated display. When I've used other manufacturer's paper profiles in the 3800 they were spot-on as well.

 

The 3800 will not do roll paper but I never used it anyway with my 2200. The 3800's B&W print driver is excellent too and its B&W prints hang right in there with the HP's. So you might want to at least consider looking at the 3800 - it is, hands down, the best inkjet printer I've ever used. Good luck!

[paul_sokal___dallas__tx]

If he'll let you use it, I'd definitely convince him to get the 3100. That way YOU won't have to sell your car and buy one. The review on Luminous-Landscape make the 3100 sound pretty d*** good, and I'm an Epson man.

[bruce_watson1]

Does he want to be on the bleeding edge or not? That's the question he needs to answer. These new HP printers are just barely on the market. And these are HPs first large format printers to address the photography market. We are already learning less than good things about them, such as the lack of a vacuum paper transport (these expensive new printers are leaving pizza wheel marks on the front of glossy papers).

 

Unless your guy is an "early adopter" (and he clearly is *not* an early adapter or he would have been fully digital five years or more ago) then I'd warn him off the big HPs and Canons.

 

Whether or like Epson or not doesn't matter. The current Epson large format printers are generation four (9000, 9500, 9600, 9800) while Canon and HP are on their first generation or large format printers. If you are betting your business on your ability to print, I'd stick with the Epsons until the Canons and HPs prove themselves.

[andrew_darlow]

Hi Gan:

 

I've been testing the 44" wide Z3100 and it is an excellent printer for matte and gloss printing, and the built-in profiles are very accurate. I am particulary hapy with the monotone output and the density of the black inks. On Hanemuhle's 350gsm Museum Rag, and Hahnemuehle Fine Art Pearl, the results are particulary stunning. The gloss enhancer performs really nicely on semi-gloss and gloss papers-especially when printing black and white.

 

However, any printer (especially over 13" wide) should be purchased only after considering how many prints will be made each month. You don't want a printer sitting for two months or more without being used. There's also the issue of space. The HP Designjet Z3100 cannot easily be used when up against a wall, because of the way in which the sheets are fed (they stick out the back while loading and before printing). Once you feed the rolls from the back, you can have it close to the wall though, and the wheels make it easy to move.

 

Also, is your friend planning to sell a lot of large prints? If he can make most of his prints within a 17" width, then the Epson SP 3800 is a great choice for matte and gloss printing.

 

Or he can find a printmaker to make larger prints, and buy a similar printer to use for proofs. For example, he can buy an HP Designjet Pro B9180 (13" wide) and use a company who prints on an HP Designjet Z2100, which has the same inkset (or the Z3100 which has a similar inkset). Or he can buy an Epson R2400 and use a company that has an Epson SP 7800 or Epson SP 9800.

 

Hope that helps.

 

All the best,

 

Andrew Darlow

Editor,

The Imaging Buffet

<http://www.imagingbuffet.com>

Listen to Our Podcast 24/7:

+1(415)376-7216

[andrew_darlow]

Hello again:

 

I raced through that last post and want to clarify a few items, though I'm sure people know: hapy should be "happy" and the proper spelling for the paper company mentioned is Hahnemühle.

 

Sorry about that,

 

Andrew Darlow

[andrew_darlow]

I also wanted to add this to my post and make two corrections to my original post:

 

Canon makes a series of printers that all use the same 12-color pigment inkset (named Canon LUCIA ink). They are the iPF5000 (17" wide), iPF8000 (44" wide) and the iPF9000 (60" wide). After testing the iPF5000 and seeing the other iPF models in action, I believe all are excellent options. If your friend was to purchase an iPF5000 for prints 17" wide and smaller, he could then work with a company who has one of the larger printers when he needs to make bigger prints. Canon's new 13" wide PIXMA Pro9500 is due out this spring. It's a 10 color, 13" wide pigment-based model.

 

The 350gsm paper that I mentioned before is actually Hahnemühle Museum Etching (not Museum Rag) and the 13" wide printer I mentioned earlier is the HP Photosmart Pro B9180 (not the Designjet Pro B9180). Sorry about that, I think I need to slow down a bit!

 

All the best,

 

Andrew Darlow, Editor, The Imaging Buffet <http://www.imagingbuffet.com> Listen to Our Podcast 24/7: +1(415) 376-7216

[van_camper]

"Whether or like Epson or not doesn't matter. The current Epson large format printers are generation four (9000, 9500, 9600, 9800) while Canon and HP are on their first generation or large format printers. If you are betting your business on your ability to print, I'd stick with the Epsons until the Canons and HPs prove themselves."

 

Prove themselves....you must be kidding! Perhaps you never went to the HP main website for commercial products. They have been making large format printers longer then Epson for the graphics mkt. Go to a graphics show and you see one Epson booth, and a dozen HP booths showing the HP designjet 5500 series (now z 3100's). These are far more reliable, made to handle high volume which Epsons are not. The z3100 is their first attempt at the consumer market, but it does not mean they do not know how to make printers. Having both black inks, gloss enhancer, calibration and profiling (spectophotometer), Hahnemuhle support, 12 ink system, built like a tank, more durable and longer lasting inks (these inks are waterproof). Epson now has catching up to do, 12 ink is the new future it seems. As for streak marks, there have been few reviews, I haven't read about this problem, and it is likely a single case. With Epson now not alone in this market, I expect increased 3rd party support since HP obviously plans on staying. I wouldn't touch a Epson now for the ink switching alone (that was a insult to us all not to include this feature in the x800 series).But why not, they thought they would save it for the next generation, just one more reason they figured for us to trade up (they goofed).

[van_camper]

I would also like to add while Epson makes 2 wide format printers (24/44inch), take a look at how many classes of printers in this size that HP has in their commercial line (guessing over 20 models). Epson has far less experience building heavy duty machines that can stand up to daily use. Also lets not mix HP9180 and HP wide format machines in the same sentence, the only thing they share in common is vivera ink. HP is well known for high quality wide format printers, don't let their smaller machines confuse the issue. Building big machines is nothing new to them. Epson doesn't even have a 60inch machine yet.

[philfx]

As I have posted earier in the thread...You DO need to look into an HP before you make generalizations.

 

There are other considerations.

 

The running cost for HP ink is less than Epson.

 

The printheads are replacable

 

They are built to last

 

And NOW FINALLY catching on to long lasting print life and smoothest gradation.

 

These were the areas HP ever lacked in. And I think in 2003 they have put out the quality that rivals the Epson's. If you search my posts here and at the Epson and HP forums, you will see that I have disected, and personally tested these printers with 3 images and inspected the sh** out of them. Then ran more tests using different RIP systems.

 

Once the HP had a custom profile made...BAM...I was done. The stock profiles never let me get a complete neutral Grey with the HP. Once the profile was used 900+ swatches later, I have color PROOFS.

 

I don't use lots of different papers, only 3 or 4, so that was also part of my thought process.

 

Another point others brought up is, how often you will run the printer. Epson has a head drip that needs to be unclogged often, so if the machine sits for a week or so, you should run a standard head clean.

 

Having said all this, I think I will have an Epson 3800 next to my HP DesignJet....Just easier to use on smaller media.

 

So saying HP needs to catch up in building printers is far from reality. Its getting the details that are aimed at Fine Art, and publication CYMK accurate coloring with continuos gradation that they ONCE were missing. That is SURELY not the case any longer.

 

On another note...those printer sure are pricey :-)

[van_camper]

Yup, I agree the HPz3100 are a bit more pricey. However, how pricey does it get switching out the black inks with Epson? Consider how often you hear about people buying 2 machines to solve that problem (now that is pricey). The spectrophotometer I imagine is what has increased the cost the most, but everyone seems to love it.

 

Now that Epson is not the only one in this market, I expect Epson to start making some significant product improvements (rather then ignoring obvious things like forgetting the ink switching problem...shees). That alone burns me about Epson, although expected when you're alone in the market. I expect 3rd party support will change quickly (especially for papers). Now that Hannaxxx paper is in the market, other competition will be pressured to also offer support to stay competitive. Leading edge is always what the photographer has been waiting for, the z3100 is it. Hp now offers 4 b/w inks for true black-and-white printing to avoid metamerism.

[jonathan_gentry]

I'll put in a vote for the IPF8000. I have it and love working with it. Very fast, holds 700ml ink carts and cuts any paper I put in it. I haven't had any trouble to speak of. It reduced my print times by 5x compared to my old Epson 9600. The black and white is excellent. The price of $3400 with free shipping for a 44" (itsupplies.com) makes it a pretty sick deal. I have no regrets...

[ron_blaylock]

I bought one about a month ago and it's fantastic. I've suffered through Epsons for years-I've

killed 1280s, 2200s, 3000s and I swore off Epsons. I looked at the Canon and HP and settled

on the z3100 24". Incredible printer. Extremely easy to set up, no-brain paper calibration,

and beautiful prints. I called HP customer service about the firmware update and spoke to a

real person immediately and they were super-helpful. The B&W prints look as good as my

old Piezography prints.

[james hilton]

"Van Camper, Feb 02, 2007; 12:35 a.m.

 

"Whether or like Epson or not doesn't matter. The current Epson large format printers are generation four (9000, 9500, 9600, 9800) while Canon and HP are on their first generation or large format printers. If you are betting your business on your ability to print, I'd stick with the Epsons until the Canons and HPs prove themselves."

 

Prove themselves....you must be kidding! Perhaps you never went to the HP main website for commercial products. They have been making large format printers longer then Epson for the graphics mkt. Go to a graphics show and you see one Epson booth, and a dozen HP booths showing the HP designjet 5500 series (now z 3100's). These are far more reliable, made to handle high volume which Epsons are not. The z3100 is their first attempt at the consumer market, but it does not mean they do not know how to make printers. Having both black inks, gloss enhancer, calibration and profiling (spectophotometer), Hahnemuhle support, 12 ink system, built like a tank, more durable and longer lasting inks (these inks are waterproof). Epson now has catching up to do, 12 ink is the new future it seems. As for streak marks, there have been few reviews, I haven't read about this problem, and it is likely a single case. With Epson now not alone in this market, I expect increased 3rd party support since HP obviously plans on staying. I wouldn't touch a Epson now for the ink switching alone (that was a insult to us all not to include this feature in the x800 series).But why not, they thought they would save it for the next generation, just one more reason they figured for us to trade up (they goofed).

 

Van Camper, Feb 02, 2007; 12:44 a.m."

 

Yes, agreed HP have a good track record with their design-jets, though I must say I have read a lot of comments from upset owners about scratch marks on glossy prints, similar to problems B9180 owners experience, which effect some machines. That seems to be the only thing people are complaining about when it comes to the Z3100.

 

I have seen some prints from a Z3100 and the results are very good! Though, I am not 100% convinced the extra inks make that much of a difference though, as the resutls are not really any different to those of a Epson 7880 on the same image....just my feelings anyway