Opinions on M4-P

[patrick2]

so in my quest for a black Leica M6TTL i've come across a number of Leica M4-P:s for sale. It seems possible to pick one up in good shape for $700-$750.

 

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Any users of them out there? How hard is it not to have any type of TTL metering?

 

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cheers,

[bds1]

Mine was much smoother than my M6. a handheld meter is no

problem to use, or have a look at the cosina clip on meter.

 

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They are a good 'users' leica

 

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B

 

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http://www.35mmf8.org

[richardvanle]

Ditto on what Brian said. My M4-P is more mechanically smooth

than my M6. The lack of a meter doesn't bother me. I use a

handheld meter or guess (in fact, my ability to meter scenes in

my head has improved dramatically since acquiring the M4-P).

[giles_poilu]

Ahhhh! What an opportunity! The M4-P is simply wonderful for many

reasons.

 

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IMO it is an advantage not to have in body metering, I love the Leica

for it's lack of unnecessary features, electronics and finder

distractions. This is unfourtunatly the opposite to the current

direction Leica is taking - OK, offer an in-built meter for those who

find it useful; but now we have the TTL electronics (with it's ironic

restrictions on flash flexibility) with more finder distractions and

soon the M7 electronic wonder which will surely kill the M6 one day.

 

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If like me you dislike chrome bodies, the M4-P becomes the most

desirable and pure modern M (if a black M4 is out of reach). No

meter, no electronics just an ergonomic marvel.

 

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I simply find that the way one works with a Leica M is hugely

compatible with a handheld meter (and in-compatible with an in-built

one) learn to read the light or guage a few light levels, transfer

that reading and stick to it.

 

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Remember, it's only for the last 16 odd years the M had the meter,

everyone managed fine before that, still today the majority of pro's

will use a handheld meter in preference to whatever camera system in-

built meter at their disposal.

 

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And of course that old chestnut, QC - this argument goes back and

forth but gradually the materials used and skill of employees seems

to be on a downward spiral - quite frankly the M4-P is made of better

materials and with more attention to QC than todays products.

 

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And it has the Leitz name on it - just to really get the flamers

going!

 

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Patrick, the bottom line is - as a usable camera it is the best value

of any Leica available today.

 

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The only way to measure the light with the in-built meter is to bring

the camera to the eye, adjust the shutter or aperture and watch the

arrows - impossible and very conspicious when shooting on the fly.

[robin_barnsley]

I bought one as a back-up to an M6, and to carry around everywhere

without having to worry so much about it getting stolen, lost or

knocked about in my briefcase or jacket pocket. Subjectively it feels

(even) more solid than the M6. If could only have one it would be the

M6, as the meter is really intuitive and useful. However, I think

the M4-P is the best value as an entry into Leica M, and wouldn't

hesitate to recommend it. They are fairly recent, cost no more than

any of the earlier models, and have the full set of viewfinder

frames. I normally use it with color neg and no meter. My exposure

guide consists of the following table taped below the rewind:

 

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3 6 9 12

2

[jay_.]

Most good lightmeters are almost as big as the M6 itself. Plus if

you're shooting slide film you need to meter more often and have a

meter with a narrow reading angle to be effective. If you don't

already own a good handheld meter, add around $200 to the cost of the

M4-P and you're approaching M6 territory. Do you wear glasses? The

M4-P has a metal eyepiece that will scratch them. You can get a

stick-on protector for a few bucks but if you want something

permanent, an M6-style eyepiece will set you back around $70. I've

saved the most important for last: the last time the M4-P appeared

in the catalog was 16 years ago but you can bet the production

stopped at least 2-3 years earlier. With most bodies in the 20-year

range, if they haven't been serviced recently (or have been, but not

by Leica or DAG or Sherry or another Leica-trained person)you should

figure $200-300 for a CLA, now or soon. Bottom-line, for other than

a backup body, a late-model M6 Classic or M6TTL is more economical

than it seems at first blush. If the rumored M7 debuts in a few

weeks, by year end (if they are actually in stores by then) there

should be a temporary spurt of used M6's on the market.

[robin_barnsley]

contd.

Now I see why so many people never quite finish their post - it's too

easy too submit prematurely!

Anyway, I have a little table which shows suitable shutter/aperture

combinations for the values 3, 6, 9, 12 that my Weston V meter would

be showing if I had it with me. For some reason I find it easier to

think like that, and can usually get it +-1.

[giles_poilu]

Jay - first of all no offence intended :) now, odd comment, I thought

you use and recommend (the very small) Sekonic L208 - I don't know

how many people really use slide film, these days, certainly with neg

film a basic meter or the experience in your head will suffice.

 

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After all your shooting, surely you can look at the sky and

say: "Yes, 1/250 at F4..." etc!

 

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As a concession, I would recommend an M6 (original Leitz classic) as

the next best option - certainly a neat solution in incorporating the

meter, but later non-upgrades like the enlarged body, TTL gubbins and

minor viewfinder mag. changes - no thanks, the .72 M4-P is the last

of the (still) great M's after the M4.

 

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M4-P PRODUCTION ended in '86, you are right, but in the light of

continuining recent QC horrors I would in all honesty trust my 1982,

immaculate, tried and tested, perfectly functioning well built M4-P

than any new M from Solms!

 

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And who ever chose a camera because it had a rubber eyepiece!

[steve_barnett2]

I heartly agree with the posters on the M4-P, it is the best 'bang

for buck' M body you can buy at present. It is marginally smaller

than the M6 (2mm in height) and to my mind feels better in the hand.

If you do go for one a late model is preferable, and if as late as

mine, you get the M6 top plate with a rubber eyepiece and the

plastic strap guards.

[nesrani]

Giles, as usual it really is a matter of application and you're right

that shooting neg is more forgiving than slide. I think lots of

people shoot slide (I do, anyway) simply because even if your final

product is a jpg, slide is so easy to review and select. And it's

easy to store and find slides later.

 

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For me personally, then, I have little choice, the M6 is the only one

I can use. Unfortunately!

[patrick2]

this current one I was looking at is a late 1981 without the strap

guards or improved vf hole. i don't need glasses. somewhat hesitant

if I have the skills to judge the exposure without a meter, and

concerned that using a hand-held meter will add a lot of time to each

exposure.

[chad_hahn]

I try never to use a meter any more since I found this link to <a

href http://www.fredparker.com/ultexp1.htm> The Ultimate Exposure

Guide</a>. I do carry around a sheet of paper with hand holdable EVs

and the corresponding shutter speeds and fstops. I compare the

description to the lighting situation, set the exposure and fire away.

My slides turn out great.

[chad_hahn]

<a HREF http://www.fredparker.com/ultexp1.htm> Lets' try this

again.</a>

[chad_hahn]

I was trying to link to http://www.fredparker.com/ultexp1.htm but was

unable to get it to work. Sorry about that.

 

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Chad Hahn

[marke_gilbert]

My first Leica was an M4-P. Got great results, a hand held meter

sometimes (I find) seems to streamline the whole process. Sold it,

still regret it...Best,

[dlegaspi]

<p><i>...don't know how many people really use slide film...</i></p>

<p>i use slide film more often [than b&w] on my M6...and i bet a lot

of posters here do load slide film on their Leica Ms</p>

[giles_poilu]

Patrick - "...concerned that using a hand-held meter will add a lot

of time to each exposure."

 

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If you are used to this way of working with an AE/AF SLR you will

find it is not really suited to the M, to meter each shot is un-

necessary and s-l-o-w with the in-built meter.

 

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Regarding slide film, I too use it sometimes but so what? - as I say

a handheld incident meter is a far more effective and reliable tool

than an in-built reflective meter ESPECIALLY for slide film!!!

 

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Besides in-built meters are 'relatively' recent, especially in M's.

[nesrani]

Well, no, Giles. When you've learnt to use the M6 meter, it is

quicker and more convenient and less invasive to use than a handheld

meter. I can pretty much guarantee 100% spot on exposures with the

M6, quickly and without having to shove a meter into the scene. Also,

one less thing to carry around.

 

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Depends on what you're doing, I suppose, but there's a reason TTL

metering has caught on: it's convenient and productive. Using a

separate meter breaks the flow of simply observing and photographing,

especially when you're shooting in conditions in which you don't want

to draw too much attention to yourself - even in people's homes, for

instance.

 

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Not all progress is simply slavish dependence on gadgetry.

[giles_poilu]

Sorry Rob, I just can't buy it! Take your style of photography

recently so well illustrated in your portfolio on this forum. My

favourite style too, imagine the familiar scenario - mooching about

the city or whatever looking for 'decisive moments' - I have the

meter 'hidden' in my hand, point it at the area of interest, take and

transfer a reading - all easy to do while acting perfectly innocently

and unseen - then wait for the moment and click! If you have to look

through the M, adjust the reading etc then surely you are

rather 'obvious'?

 

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Do you meter each shot? - surely you take one reading off a mid-tone

and leave it alone unless needs must?

 

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Much quicker for my way of working, but then we are all different in

the way we work - the M6 meter works for you, it doesn't for me (and

maybe others).

[douglas k.]

Hey Giles--

 

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If you hate the flashing diodes in the M6, you can always remove the

battery!

[hoyin_lee1]

I have a M4-P and I use of for shooting slide film, with a clip-on

non-TTL Voigtlander VC Meter (used to meter with a Sekonic handheld

meter--it's less easily fooled in difficult lighting situations, but

found it too slow to use). Exposure is spot-on as long as I'm aware

of the limitations of using such a metering method (I have over 90%

success rate for most rolls, which translate to only one or two

wrongly exposed shots per roll). The main problem with this camera

is not the lack of a built-in meter, but the inconvenience of having

to use an external uncoupled meter--it slows you down by making you

think about what you're doing before you shoot (which is not a bad

thing, come to think of it!). I won't recommend the M4-P as a camera

for, say, wedding (based on actual experience--my backup CLE with TTL

exposure and flash metering turned out to be far easier for the

job!). A Classic or TTL M6 is perhaps a more convenient camera, but

for some inexplicable reason, I prefer the M4-P. I'd suggest that

you get one now before it becomes an expensive collectible, which it

surely will.

[djphoto]

Slide/transparency film has been my primary camera fodder for the

whole of my 30-plus-years career. I use built-in meters occasionally,

but for the most part use an incident meter. I can flick that

Autometer IV-F out, take a reading, and be shooting while most TTL

people are still holding their cameras up to their faces and twiddling

dials.

 

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On the other hand, I don't use the Leica M very much for color slides

because I bracket extensively (the correct exposure is seldom the best

exposure), and for me it's very slow and awkward to bracket with the

M.

[nesrani]

No Giles no Giles no Giles no. I'm in denial on this one.

 

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See you in the forest Sunday 8.30 sharp.

[giles_poilu]

Douglas - "If you hate the flashing diodes in the M6, you can always

remove the battery!"

 

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Yes, good point but the thought of those horrible, dead electronics

floating about inside would play on my mind - ugh!

 

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Seriously, look at some of those 'street' shots in the 'how brave...'

thread - now that style of photography for me (ie reportage,

documentary) is the M's raison d'etre - you certainly don't 'ttl

meter' every shot like that before you grab it!

[giles_poilu]

Rob, forget the forest I'm off to Heathrow, I'll be in Italy by

midnight!