steve_levine Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 Today, the local paper here published it's "wedding guide". There are only 1 or 2 photographers advertising, and one of them is offering services starting at $495. At that price, how could anyone possibly make a profit? Or even break even? There are but 24 Saturday in the 6 month season. If this person manages to book all of these dates, they can gross a whopping $12,000.00.This is gross, not net, expenes must be subtracted from this total! A part time job flipping burgers would pay more, without all the headaches. Unlike burgers, wedding work doesn't rely on "volume" to turn a profit either. This isn't enough to pay for a pair of camera outfits and a lap top? What about insurance, travel costs, equipment depreciation, and printing costs? Do these people know what a spreadsheet is? No wonder all the studios that had high overhead, are now "buildings for rent". My business is now entirely "referral based". This wasn't an easy hill to climb. But luckily I used a realistic business model. Suffice to say, pricing one's self at sub $500 will get you no where fast, and you will be broke when you arrive. The best advice is to not learn on the job at discount prices. This will only pigeon hole you into an inescapable low end corner. Find a mentor that knows how to do the job, and make a living, and learn from them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrettPrucha Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 Does this mean you are offering yourself as a mentor for someone? Maybe you should make that offer to your $495 competitor if you feel so strongly about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen hazelton Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 My wife used to work at a McDonalds. I don't think she normally cleared $500 in a Saturday. I would guess this gets you a couple of hours of work and pictures on a CD. If you don't spend too much time post-processing, it looks like good work. I've seen numerous posts along similar lines. Generally, the wedding photographer that charges $5,000 believes it can't be done for less. The one that uses medium format believes it can't be done properly with 35mm, etc. In reality, there is a full range of costs and quality out there, ranging from free on up. (I don't think my whole wedding cost $500, and the photography was "free", if that helps put things in perspective.) The last wedding I was at, had a guy with nice digital gear and an assistant- sounds like your style. The wedding before that was in a backyard with about 10 people present, and the bride's sister did what photography was done- that was the "free" level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmichaelc Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 Your right Steve from a solely buisness view point. However, most of these sub $500.00 photographers are fulfilling something way more important than the money earned from their work. They are fulfilling their inner passion for being a part of something so important and expressive. Some learn from making major mistakes and some never recover. I use to think that it was wrong for these photographers to learn and make mistakes at the B/G expense. But, not anymore. I've learned that there are those who preferr these photographers and ultimately it was their (B/G) choice to take that chance. I'm convinced that those who can charge $500.00 are beginning thier path into this buisness and they have another source of income to endure financially. That's what i did and still do....but the point to where i can dedicate full time to this buisness is drawing nearer with each passing year. I think finding a mentor is a great idea, worthwhile, and great advice. However, there is nothing like learning under solo pressure and learning from mistakes. If you can find a B/G that's willing to take that chance for the $500.00 market, i'd say go for it. Just be honest. To be honest, if i was getting married and had a budget of $500.00, i'd rather hire someone starting out full of passion willing to work all day than to hire a seasoned pro for a few hours who never left the $500.00 market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick_gerbehy1 Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 If they spent money to advertise the "$500. Wedding Packages", you can be pretty sure that they will also spend money to have someone sell you something other than the advertised special. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david_schilling___chicago_ Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 $500 could easily be the "come on" price in the same sense that some car dealers will advertise a low special but then once you add up all the "extras" the price has gotten alot higher. The average actual booking price could be significantly higher. Some studios have good success with "upsells" after the wedding and it's also possible to cover weddings in a way that you can take advantage of reprint sales to family & guests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamie_thomas Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 I am a photographer that started out at $600 a wedding my first year, crazy I know. My philosophy at that time was to make it so cheap they can?t pass it up, so that I can get my name out there. I never worked for another photographer but I did go to collage for four years studding photography. Needless to say it only took me one year to figure out why photographers charge so much. I don?t care how much a B/G pays there are always those ones who fine something to complain about, and at $600 it was not worth it. My guess is that this is a photographer that is just trying to get his name out there. I bet after a few $495 weddings they will rethink their prices. My price are still low, and well after preparing my taxes this last week, I know that I am in need of a raise. You know, one time last year, I was listing to a radio talk show, and they said that wedding photography was one of the TOP TEN most over played jobs. Boy that made me MAD! Who came up with that, most people don?t relies the time, work, and stress that goes into wedding photography. Don?t get me wrong, I LOVE doing weddings, can?t see my self doing any other job, but it is a job. You?re doing it to make a living and well you can?t at $450. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justscattin Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 I think most photographers (as students or just starting out) think that low prices are the best way to attract clients. I did. I also delt with more bridezillas that way as well. Worked my butt off for mean people who did not respect me at all, just loved the price tag. I learned the hard way. Now, my prices are above most in my area (Only one other that offers prices in my range and they still have the bargen package too)...I'm booked for 2007...and with brides that respect my artistic vision, my packages and treat me and my work with respect. There is no haggling, there is no fits of temper, there is no whining. Best thing I did was start charging what I was worth. You do the same. Network with bridal stores, jewlery stores, talk to people. Have a good website. Charge a PROFESSIONAL PRICE and behave like a PROFESSIONAL! It works. Michelle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamie_thomas Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 Michelle, you are so right about that respect thing. I had more Bridzillas at $600 than I do now. It might be because I got better but, I really think it because most brides that go cheap on their photographer, are wanting more than they payed for. So what photographer wants that kind of client, not me. I want them to hire me because they love my work and art, not price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry_ Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 The 'base' price for a wedding is usually exceeded if your work is very good. Some weddings have budget limits, period. (I get a military [retired] paycheck once a month, so I'll not starve __ $300 to $500 for one day of 'work,' and a day or two of putting a small album together is much more enjoyable than taking orders at any fast-food establishment.) With every Uncle Bob and a digital SLR in the family, some folks opt for no professional photographer. That way, it seems, is even going to kill the $495.00 guy/gal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justscattin Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 I feel that there will always be a market for true professional photography. Anyone can point and shoot...but can just anyone do the artistic creations that we as professionals do? Yes, we as professionals are having to make some adjustments such as concidering giving resized and sharpened images WITH OUR LOGO'S ON THEM for myspace and private e-mail use to clients...but if it's done right, that can be FREE advertising for the professional. Michelle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen dohring Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 I am Mr. free or practically wedding photographer you may remember Steve you ripped me a new one on my first photos. I spent 4 months going to every studio, emailing all the best photographers NO ONE will Mentor. Very nice skilled photographers, some spent and hour talking about the business to me but won't let me assist even for FREE. I jumped in and shot a wedding. My flash was inconsistent, and I did not aim in properly on all shots, I rushed shots and should have had them more level, My posing skills were poor, and flower bouqet postions were not the best, but I did the best I could and learned a ton. The couple and family were thrilled, they had no money I received many emails about how they were pleased, mainly because they knew they had a rookie and they know how much real pros charge. The pictures were not stellar but not bad either. I did what I had to do, read books everynight, looked at the best photographers work, printed out copies and made notes I refered too. I am glad they were happy but I am not, I have continued to try more photographers now out of town. When you are thrown in to the fire with the fast pace and everything going on you are just trying to keep up, I had a shortit was to be honest thrilling to me and I survived to be better the next time. I don't want to hurt the industry but rookies can't charge 2k. $500.00 does cheapen the craft but these guys are going to sink or swim and most will sink. It is everyones job from $500.00 to $5000.0 to educate the clients. I told them I have no experience I will do the best I can. If you have the money get a pro. They were gradding cases of beer to their reception when I was supposed to be shooting family, groom and Bride separately. There is a market for $500.00 weddings a need, and guys starting out. If you are at a high level those clients understand the difference, have confidence in your skills and keep on keeping on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amy cupp Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 As most of you know, I am doing my first one for free. In the meantime, I am studying like crazy, reading everything I can and playing with my camera as much as possible. Once I get experience I do not know how much I will charge. I have also attempted to ask to be a second shooter/asst, etc but no response other than one guy who just did not have enough work. Also, some only want experienced people and I cant blame them for that. The others did not respond so I assume that they do not want to train their future competition. I guess I will sink or swim. The bride and groom know that I have never done a wedding, but they cannot afford a pro, so if they do "book" me after our meeting this Saturday, I will be so excited. I work so much better under pressure and am willing to just jump in despite all the warnings I have received (Luv ya Conrad : ).... When I was checking around, the guy that did my wedding 6 years ago now charges 3x what he did then. Back then, he only charged $300 for his service and a proof book - the pics are beautiful. Now he charges $995 for a package similar to this. Most in my area charge this amt for a basic service package. I have seen one that charges a minimum of 1600.00 per any weekend wedding . He did my cousin's wedding about 5 years ago when he was just starting out and the pics were not impressive, but now his pics are awesome. He started out doing it for free too and now has a studio. I think there are only 2 photographers in my town that actually have a studio and only 1 that is not in their house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt_k1 Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 Everybody has to start somewhere, right? <p> There's a market for everything, right?<p> I'm sure these $500 wedding shooters are either not offering much for that starting price, or have other sources of income, or both.<p> Relax Steve L. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEGREEFOTO Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 Just a thought guys....would any of you that are starting out or charging the low fee's...would you be doing so if digital was not around and you only had to use film....it's an honest question folks. Artur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krisheylen Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 What means <i>services starting at $495</i> ? He could be referring to a 2 hour coverage with batch converted low res Jpgs on CD. The final price could be totally different if a client wants proofs on paper, hi-res images on CD, an album etc...<p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug grosjean Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 I've shot weddings for free for friends who had little or no money. I'm skilled, but I'm not a wedding photog, and I'm honest about that. I don't have much in the way of flash equipment, but it's never been a problem because friends that have asked have married outside. I shoot film, and eat the costs. Sure, I rationed the film (in one wedding, I didn't know I was the photog till I showed up), but rationing shots and waiting for the right moment is the basic stuff of film photography (esp. with a TLR Rolleicord, with only 12 shots), so NBD. These have been good friends, who've simply fallen on hard times. Luck of the draw that I wasn't down on my luck when they married, and could afford to give. Without donating my talents, they'd have had no wedding photos at all. Instead, they got a mix of good photos on MF film, scanned and burned to CD. Good photos because usually I knew both families, and had rapport with the guest, being a guest myself. Low expectations by the b/g, which I far suprassed w/o breaking a sweat. I don't believe that any pro photog lost money on what I shot. In each case, the b/g simply would have gone without. I get requests from people to do weddings every now and then, maybe once or twice a year, because I've done portraits and done them well. I'm honest about ability and gear (esp. if in a dimly lit church), and if I'm not able to do it we part ways, still friends. Honesty counts for a lot, in biz or in life. Summary: some people can spend $5,000 on a wedding package, and some simply can't. I wouldn't fault anybody for not having money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seawolff Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 "Just a thought guys....would any of you that are starting out or charging the low fee's...would you be doing so if digital was not around and you only had to use film....it's an honest question folks. Artur" Arthur, you are right on the money. I was shooting 35mm weddings in the 80s and was not happy with the risk the bride and groom were at with me not knowing 100 percent what was in the camera or on film when I left the hall. I switched to landscapes and underwater. A few years ago when digital quality was there and I can test my work in progress, I decided to give it another go. First with candid kid portraits, then corporate events, and now weddings. From my first hawkeye instamatic in 67 to my A1s in 81 that I just retired, I will not accept the film risk. However, at no time do I do a wedding on the cheap. I am almost 50, shooting a camera for 40 years, have developed excellent people skills and good photographic skills. Every year of experience is in my shot and in my bill, with the exception of special circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kari douma Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 My first wedding 4 years ago was on film. I charged $600 and had about $500 in expenses for the proofing. I thought good, I made a hundred bucks for the day! It only took me one more wedding to realize I was loosing money and working for free. But, everyone does have to start somewhere. Also, there are people out there who will not and can not pay $2500+ for a wedding photographer. These "$500 photographers" fill a place in the market. Do you think a painter who charges thousands for a painting worries that they are selling oil paintings at the department store for $50? I think if people don't want to pay my prices, they don't have to. If they want to pay $500, let them. I have set my prices to be what I feel I need to make. If they don't want to pay, fine. But, my philosiphy might be different than a wedding photographer who needs every job they can get to pay the bills and put food on the table. That is not my case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nancy s. Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 If you advertise in the newspaper, you are looking to shoot volume and you are not going to get very high end customers (for the most part.. not always but for the most part). No one doing a wedding for $500 is going to CLEAR $500. Fact is, if you work for Mcd's for 8 hours you will CLEAR about $50 (after deductions). Shooting a wedding for $500 won't CLEAR you a lot more... and the pressure is enormous! Here is an example of beginner expenses: $6,000 for camera, back up camera, lenses, flash, case, cards etc. (and I am going light here and some of this is being purchased used). $1500 for computer and $1000 for software. Car expenses at 60 cents a mile to and from... Insurance at $500 a year Reputable clothing for $XX??? TIME (yours) 8-10 hours for the wedding and another XX??? hours at the computer (this is where I love film.. sorry.. LOL) INCOME taxes (take off 25% and set it aside cux the tax man cometh) SOCIAL SECURITY TAXES (take off 15% because you get to pay both the employee and employer shares). There is more but this gets your started. The $495 wedding photographer isn't claiming a thing and if the tax man cometh is going to be paying more out than it cost to shoot. Remember, for all the love of photography, this is a BUSINESS. Do you see where this is going? You cannot shot weddings even part time for $495. You need all this stuff even if that is for 2 hours (and I am willing to bet it is not). You can say you could book 2 or 3 a day for 2 hours each, but not many photographers get that luxory and the season in NY is short! It is fine to learn. I suggest learning for free and being very honest about experience levels. Finding someone to assist can be a challenge. Remember, a photographer is hiring not only an assistant but his future competition. Most know this. I was fortunate in this business to have had the advantage of assisting two good professional photographers. One of these two was the better photographer (had greater spread and depth of knowledge and experience) and he actually charged less than the other one. I don't do weddings anymore. I can if I wanted to, but I don't want to anymore. I like the results and delivering the photos, but I really do not like receptions and I really don't like riding herd on a group of drunken groomsmen/guests/wedding party etc who consider and open bar akin to winning the State lottery! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gina_marie1 Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 I never really understand why such strong opinions come out with this topic. So what if someone offers $500 wedding packages. Honestly, there are so many people getting married I'm sure lowball budget photographer as well as you will have a great wedding season. Also, the couple who spends $500 is not EVER going to spend 5+ times that to another photographer. No matter how many times you warn them lessor prices = less quality work, less experience etc. They have a budget and they're going to try to stick to that. As for overhead costs..gear choices vary, we have not spent near $12,000. 2 cameras, 2 tele zooms (one 'L), 10-22, 50 1.8, 28-75, flash (need one more) and a laptop which I also use for another business. So far all of this has cost under $6,000. Mind you all is not top of the line and some is used but you see the point. I even read an article that said David Jay started doing weddings 5 or so years ago charging 1,000 and he now makes 10,000 a wedding. Interestingly enough, he's clearly not worried about sharing his knowledge or helping to improve other photographers either...he speaks at many workshops and seminars,etc. I always wonder to myself if posts like this are truly thinking of the poor couples who cannot afford a photographer and may get lousy wedding photos, concern for the budget photographer who is working too hard and charging too little, or is it 'oh no, another dang budget photographer is in my area and going to take away business from me'. I am new to the industry and taking all the learning routes mentioned above, books, classes, practice..practice..practice. Lots of portrait/location sessions. Our wedding photographer is going to allow us to shoot with him so we can get experience and portfolio material but that is only for a couple of weddings and then I wonder...how else do we get experience but offer some budget wedding packages? I have sent my portfolio to several local photographers who were advertising the need for 2nd shooters or assistants. I was honest with them and told them I was fairly new and working on my own business as well. No responses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartMoxham Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 For most doing these jobs its a second income. They are making some money from their hobby. Often they shoot burn to CD and give it to the B&G. The B&Gs that book these photographers are shopping on price and often don't have a big budget. For someone that has a day job where the wages are not very high making an extra 500 for some time shooting and burning a cd is quite good for them and helps them to make ends meet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Michael Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 Mr Levine: I am the first to state that the best road for a beginner comprises learning photographic theory at college, being apprenticed, and assisting at a number of weddings prior to shooting one`s first Wedding under a solo contract. Most likely the advertisement to which you refer, does have `packages` that are cheaper than yours, (and mine). But the wording you quoted `services staring at $495` may simply refer to a one half hour formal sitting for wedding party at the studio en route to the reception, with a 10 x 8 print. Or, depending upon the advertising laws in you precinct, it may mean the $495 is to get a photographer to turn up, everything else is extra! My guess, as is your assumption, is that it is not; but rather $495 is for a basic package at least at the Service. But we are both business people are we not? And, it seems from posts on this forum at least, if either of us is asked an honest and sincere question we respond with advice that we believe will assist. But it appears this business running the `cheap ad` is in competition with you, as many businesses are with my company. Many of our competitors sell their product for much less than us, it is not my concern. If your spreadsheet reckons that this business will be out of business in six months, then perhaps there will be another equally as unskilled at business to take its place. After 5 years, utilizing this dynamic alone, your business could have growth PLUS. We refer to what we do as professional? To me this implies a curtesy and responsibility to assist the beginner with advice, and to offer assistance where possible; but a profession is not elevated above the simple matters of commerce and business, as your comments points out: we must make a profit to stay in business and a professional businessperson can identify the line between the two. The conclusion you finally draw implies is that all those offering discount prices are leaning on the job: not so. Many offering discount prices are simply your competition as they are mine. As competition in the market place these businesses must be respected and included as a potential threat to your business model, as I consider the same as a potential threat to our business. That said, thus far, in our marketplace, we have seen many `discounters` come and go over the years. They last about one year at the most, or hang on, as a part time operation. It is not my concern if these businesses make money or loose everything. However, this does not relinquish my responsibility to answer honestly, if asked, as to what I consider what the best path to walk is, when starting out; which I outlined in my first paragraph. There is too much stress in business as it is: and whilst understanding the passion and intent of your post; let them run the advertisement. From where I view it, it can only benefit your business. Chill man, Regards WW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edrodgers Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 Just a thought... Couldn't this also be an agency type operation? Give the poor photographer $250 and keep the rest. Then book 10 weddings every Saturday. Use high school kids... I know people working in chain portrait studios for 8 bucks an hour that would love the raise. -Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lb- Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 <i>Do these people know what a spreadsheet is? </i><p> uh, do you? <p> I've never seen a useful spreadsheet that calculated using incomplete data, which is exactly what you're doing here. you really have no idea what that person is selling or their overall situation. the $495 rate could be for tuesday bookings only for all you know. <p> <i>At that price, how could anyone possibly make a profit? </i><p> you assume the $495 fee is supposed to make a profit. it could be a loss leader to get people in for print sales etc. it could be someone with an established photography business looking to break into weddings and shooting at cost. who knows, but the single data point of $495 isn't enough to draw a useful conclusion from. <p> I understand (from this post and many others) that you're upset about low cost wedding photographers in your market, and I'm going to assume the reason you're upset is that your bookings are down and business isn't so great (otherwise why would you care). While I think it's a positive thing to come here and vent, I have to ask, are you taking any other, more proactive steps toward increasing your bookings? you have a wealth of experience and excellent images, it would seem a shame for you to waste your energy wallowing in indignation about some ad in the paper. <p> good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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