Need some repair advice.... M4-2

[charles barcellona www.bl]

I sent my M4-2 to Sherry and she called me today. We had a nice chat that began like this: "I just want to let you know that your M4-2 is the biggest piece of <explative> that Leitz ever made"....

 

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She's a one of kind! She suggest an overhaul ($165lab+$40parts) and suggests that and only that, because as she says "if you insist on using the camera, we're gonna be chatting like this a lot".

 

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The viewfinder/rangefinder inner optics are delaminating.. what I thought was fuzz from fungus, was actually delamination. The RF spot is fairly dim because of this. New RF mechanism is $214!!!, and is the only fix for that problem. I have a choice of M4-2 or M4-P/M6 type RF mechanisms (4 frames vs 6 frames). If I get the RF replaced, should I do the 4 or 6? I

 

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I "may" need a shutter curtain, because she says the lumpyness was overheating from sunlight. It has not burned thru, but got hot and lumped up the rubber on the cloth. She doesn't suggest a new curtain unless its curled at the edges (she won't know until she has it apart).

 

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Ok kind folks... I need some advice: Should I spring for a new RF mechanism and have a nice bright focusing patch, or should I just leave well enough alone? And... should I just have her replace the curtain regarless, as its bound to fail, or... wait till it fails. Curtain is $60 plus $15 more in labor now, or $60 and $90 labor later, so its like the seventy five dollar gamble.

 

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Sherry suggests that an M4-2 is doing well not to have something break every 4 years or so. She was really down on em....

 

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What are people getting out of theirs in the real world as far as repairs are concerned? This camera has seen almost no use, and is virtually 100 percent cosmetically if that makes any difference.

[michael_darnton1]

Seems like she's being a bit over the edge, doesn't it? I've got an

M4-2 that I really like, but it's not got long enough of a history

for me to dis it yet. :-) But if it was mine, I'd get the new finder,

and new shutter curtains, and take the chance that by some miracle it

turns out to be more reliable than a Minolta or a Canon or a Pentax

or a . . . . . . well, you get the idea. Does she really mean to say

that even she can't make it so it's gonna work? Somehow I find that

hard to believe.

[charles barcellona www.bl]

She is just saying that the shutters are not so good, the clutch is

so-so, the synch contact cracks off internally and jams the camera,

etc etc. As she says it.. it was made by file and shim, not by fit or

close tolorance.

 

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I can see that she is really UP on the pre-M4-2 cameras, and no doubt

they're made better, but have things changed all THAT much since the

M4-2 changes? Is the M4-p or M6 etc made significantly better? I

have no idea.

 

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How about the finder? Stick with 4 and keep it original? Go with 6

and have the laterst? Price is the same either way.

[rolo]

You received Sherry's standard speech. She takes these

cameras apart and puts 'em back together for a living, so I trust

her opinion of the guts of these machines far more than I trust

the opinion of some who praise every new product to come out

of Solms.

 

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That said, I believe that Leicas, even the M4-2, are better made

than probably any other camera on the market today. And there's

no reason that Sherry Krauter's Golden Touch can't make your

M4-2 essentially better than it was when it left Midland. If you

think you're going to keep this camera, then doing all the fixes is

a worthwhile investment. Get the overhaul, get the new RF

mechanism (only you know whether you want 28 and 75

framelines, can't help you there), get a new clutch and replace

the shutter curtain if it needs it. I would bet that the camera will

keep clicking for a lot longer than four years before you need to

send it in again.

 

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I have an M6 that Sherry has worked on three times in the last

two years -- overhaul, new advance gear head and clutch, new

ISO dial switch, new upper light shield (and some minor surgery

on the lower light shield which tore), new frameline lever

mechanism -- about $600 total. The camera is truly better than it

was new (and I bought it new). BTW, it was new in 1996, so her

four to five year estimate was true in my case. It was worth it to

me because I figure I'll use that camera until it absolutely dies.

I'm not selling it.

 

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One other line you will hear Sherry K. utter like a mantra: "The

systematic cheapening of every part in the camera." I bet she's

not happy about the new electronic shutter. . . .

[jay_.]

I have a lot of respect for Sherry, as well as for Don Goldberg who

is much less flamboyantly outspoken. You might consider getting a

second opinion. However it sounds to me like your particular M4-2

has lived an especially hard life. I don't know the cosmetic

condition, but an M4-2 has a terminal value (at present) of about

$1000 in *mint* shape. Whether you choose to put all that money into

it is of course your choice. Personally I would very likely e-Bay

it "as-is for parts" and put the salvage proceeds along with the

repair money, toward an M6.

[charles barcellona www.bl]

No! Its had an easy life - just a boring one. It does need a clutch

(just that m4-2's are prone to go out, saith Sherry).

 

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It does need a 2nd curtain, and new RF because of delamination, and a

CLA (all gummy, not broken).

 

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The outside metal is perfect, not a scratch! The vulcanite is

starting to go, but sherry says glue it till I can no longer stand it.

 

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The camera has literally had virtually no use, a "closet classic" as

they say.

[richard_brown1]

Charles,

Do yourself a favor and tell "the Golden Touch Lady" to return

your camera. I know she's a big favorite of the Greenspan web

site but, let me tell you ...... My M-6 went there for a total overhaul,

it came back working REAL SMOOTH but, only for a very short

time. After only 10 months, I noticed on each roll of film, one or

two frames was only partially exposed. How can this be I

thought to myself. This camera has just been serviced by the

Golden Touch. That night, the camera completely jammed. So, I

called her the next morning. After totally dissing it saying its

barely a notch above an M4-2 she persuaded me to send it back

again. Three weeks later my baby comes back. The first thing I

do is inspect the camera. I set the shutter speed dial to B and

fire it. What happens? The shutter doesn't stay open. What's

going on I ask myself. I put some film in, shoot and process the

roll. Suprise, Suprise nothings been fixed. All she did was

un-jam it and let it sit on her shelf for three weeks, wasting my

time and money. The negativity that she expounds is the same

thing that goes into your camera. Leica New Jersey is the way to

go. Do you want to use a 28mm lens? Then do the 6 finder.

Have a nice day.

[jay_.]

I bought a well-used M4-2 a while ago, which Sherry CLA'd for me, and

it required nothing in the way of parts. The viewfinder was a little

cloudy but she cleaned it up perfectly. Perhaps storage conditions

could account for the delamination and the shutter curtain

deterioration but I'm hard-pressed to understand why the clutch

should go on a little-used body. But my experience with Sherry is

that while she may invoke poetic license for some of her diatribes,

when it comes to estimating repairs she is 100% trustworthy.

[carlin]

I'm having trouble keeping

straight everything that's

wrong with this camera...1.

Rangefinder delaminating...2.

Shutter curtain problems...3.

Vulcanite problems...4. Clutch

in need of replacement...Am I

missing anything? For a camera

without a mark on it, I'd say

you've got yourself quite a

handful. I'm not trying to slam

the M4-2, but this one sounds

like a charity case. My advice

is to cut and run. Sell it on ebay

as a parts camera. There are

plenty of great Leicas out there

that will operate flawlessly

for years....

[charles barcellona www.bl]

No, not clutch, it was a typo.. was supposed to be DOESN'T need

replacing... sorry

 

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just CLA, RF replacement, and 2nd curtain.

 

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The curtain has like a bubbled back, caused by not so much burn, but

overheating due to out of focus sun on it. Maybe left in a dashboard

with lenscap off, or similar.

 

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The camera looks like it has sat on a shelf for all these years, paint

and finish are perfect, but other is all deteriorated from time

[carlin]

Hmm. I don't know, Charles,

that's still a HUGE repair bill.

And I'd second Sherry's

diagnostic skills as well. If she

says it's going to be a problem

camera, expect it to be. I think

this camera would make some

collector very happy by

continuing to do what it's done

all it's life...sit on a shelf in

'perfect' shape.

[david_kelly1]

Get it back, put on eBay as what it is: a cosmetically near-mint

camera that has been sitting on the shelf nearly all its life and

needs a CLA. I'll bet you get at least a grand to put towards the

M2,3, or 4 that your grandchildren will inheritin well-used but

excellent working condition.

[patrick2]

Charles et al,

 

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I may not be a trusted expert on old Leica, nor on CLAs, but I hope

you are not "married" to this M4-2. Rationally thinking, it seems

like a wise decision to sell it as is and start fresh. I've seen a

number of "minty" M4-P on eBay lately go for around $725-800. On top

of that, M6 and M6 TTL prices are likely to fall in the short term.

There are good deals to be had out there with a bit of patience.

 

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Cheers,

[leicaville]

In case someone reads this older thread, like I just did, I thought I'd put in my opinion on this. The M4-2 was the first camera assembled using non hand fitted parts, a departure from the usual method Leica had used throughout it's history. Leica in it's growing pains did not know how to do this well, so the first few hundred cameras coming off the line were very troublesome and continue to be so to this day. Many parts of the camera can be a problem depending on the individual camera. For example, a plastic clutch part was used under the exposure counter I believe, and this would jam. It was later replaced with a metal part. Leica got better and better at building these cameras so that the M4-2 did get better and eventually turned into the M4-P - known for it's ruggedness, which in turn begame the M6. All M4-2's and early M4-P's (before the M6 window version) had brass top plates instead of zinc castings, which many prefer. The new MP has the brass plates to restore some quality parts to it's higher end camera. Not that zinc isn't strong, it tends to take knocks better actually, however if the coating gets damaged or rubbed off, then the brass is better. As far as shutter curtains, it doesn't take long for the sun to damage the curtains if the focus is on infinity and the lens is at it's widest aperture and the camera is still facing towards the sun.

[tom_abrahamsson]

Charles,

when the M4-2 came out in the late 70's I bought two of them. These were very early ones and yes I did have problems with them.They were fixed under warranty and after that worked very well for 4 years when I replaced them with M4P's (because of the 28/75 finder). One of my M4-2 developed a shutter bounce at 1/125 and 1/250 (fixed in Paris when we lived there) and the other one had a flawed filmadvance - it would skip a tooth on the advance gear and the result was over lapping frames.

Your M4-2 exhibits the typical "mint" syndrome.It has obviously not been used very much if at all All lubricants have migrated to the lowest point in the camera and thus the camera is running dry. The damaged curtain and the foggy viewfinder points to improper storage. It has literally been "boiled" by sunlight. The heat will evaporate the adhesive in the finder assembly and it will settle on any surface and it also dried out the vulcanite.

Should you fix it? Yes,I think so as the M4-2 is a good camera once it is set up right and one of my old ones was taken over by a friend who used it for almost 10 years with no problems. He did drop it in the Pacific Ocean and that did finish it of in the end.

Are the M3's or M4's better than the M4-2's or M4P's? I dont think so - and my first M4-P is still going strong after 23 years of hard use and only one service in that time (early 90's). There are less things to go wrong on the older, all mechanical M's. The early M6's had chips that ceased working (two of my 1984/85 M6's become pricey M4-P's) and the TTL's used to drain the batteries in record time. I dont use the M7 enough to have isolated any problem and the MP has not had enough film through it to find anything yet.

Fix the M4-2 and go for it. It is still going to cost less than a similar condition M4 and if that camera had been stored the same way, you would probably encounter the same problem. This is why I prefer a well used M-body to the Mint ones- if it has worked for somebody else for a couple of decades, it will probably continue to do so.

Best,

Tom A