Tragedy

[luther_berry]

I know this is off topic but I would like to express my deep personal regrets to our Canadian forum members for the tragic deaths of four Canadian soldiers yesterday in Afghanistan. We in the USA appreciate the support and friendship of our neighbors to the north. It is unfortunate that words cannot heal the hurt, nor can they stop evil. The cost of freedom is very high and many have given their lives that others may enjoy this privilege.

To all who have served or contributed in the ongoing fight against terrorism, regardless of country or nationality, I say "THANK YOU". LB

[paul_chefurka1]

Thanks for your kind thoughts, Luther. Just don't let it happen

again, eh?

[ivor_quaggin]

Luther - Your kind words are appreciated. Many thanks.

[greg_marshall]

I can sympathize with the pilot, actually. I realize he will have to

carry this with him for the rest of his life. What I can't understand

is releasing a weapon under these circumstances. Designated training

area! I can understand a short round, even understand the issue a

while ago with the GPS coordinates. I can understand firing on your

own troops if they are in close contact. I can't understand this at

all. Just plain dumb.

[andy_piper2]

Greg: Not that it's any more comfort - but my paper (Rocky Mountain

News - Denver) led its national/international news with this incident -

and would have played it even higher if we hadn't also lost a local man

among the four Americans killed disarming weapons in Kandahar the day

before.

 

<p>

 

Some US editors may have strange priorities - but I suspect the folks

y'all helped out at Gander and other airports in the days after 9/11

felt sick about this, too.

[david_killick]

Sympathy from New Zealand too. This week honours were presented to the

family of a major in the New Zealand Special Air Services who was

killed about a year ago in Kuwait by "friendly fire" from US Navy jet.

I suppose that was little reported in the US too. While one of the

virtues of this forum is that it largely keeps clear of political

issues, I think it is vitally important for Americans to keep abreast

of international events - to realise that other countries exist too -

and to avoid an isolationist stand. Not to do so is perilous.

[iwmac]

Just a thought, but if Bush, Jr. had not been "elected", would "9/11" have happened? I believe the last war the US was in was started by his father.

[emile_de_leon9]

The older I get the more I think that war sucks big time.It ruins

those who fight it... those who live in it and with it... and those

who lose friends and relatives while staying at home. No one

wins...ever.The kids who are recruited to fight these wars dont

generally know their ass from a hole in the wall as they are only

barely out of high school.It is absolutly the stupidest and saddest

activity that man has ever created.If we dont stop this nonsense

soon, with our unending creation of ultimate weaponry to maim and

kill our so called ememies, we will really end up destroying

ourselves.

[doug_landrum]

My condolences to our Canadian brothers and sisters. As a former

officer in the United States Army, I can assure you that the grief of

the F16 driver who dropped the bomb is second only to the grief of

the immediate family members of the killed and wounded. This

incident will be investigated and any that are guilty of negligence

will be disciplined.

 

<p>

 

We have lost a few of our own in friendly fire incidents, accidents,

bomb clearing efforts and enemy fire in Afghanistan as well. We lost

about 3,000 on 9/11. That does not make the loss of our Canadian

brothers any less painful.

 

<p>

 

Unless you haven't noticed, the al Qaeda boys desire to end Western

civilization and turn all the world's women into slaves. We have a

real fight on our hands. I appreciate the help from the British,

Australians, Germans, Pakistanis, Russians, French, friendly Afghans

and many others that know what the world is up against. To Mr

MacEachern, as for your implication of President Bush being

responsible directly or indirectly for 9/11, if you think President

Clinton was a friend of al Qaeda, just count the number of dead in

Mogadishu, Somalia and the number of cruise missles shot on his

orders to kill UBL.

 

<p>

 

I agree that war is bad, but losing this war to the bad guys would be

worse for our women and children. Thank you Canadians for joining

the fight - with your help, I know that our side will win.

Unfortunately, the price of freedom is indeed high as Luther first

posted.

[tony_rowlett2]

I am horribly sorry, but I accidently deleted the following three

posts. These posts were right after Ivor's post that reads, "Luther -

Your kind words are appreciated. Many thanks. "<p>

Again... I am very sorry for this. Here are the three posts:<p>

 

Friendly fire is understandable in the fog war. This incident does not

appear to fall within that category, but appears to be a case of a

poorly-briefed pilot operating outside theatre rules of

engagement. I find it appalling, and frankly unforgiveable. That the

American

press should relegate it to an inside page (p.4 in the LA Times,

p.10 in the Orange County Register), secondary to such newsworthy

events as the arrest of a washed-up actor for the murder of his

wife, just rubs salt in the wounds. Condolences are welcome, but are

thin stuff indeed to the families.

<p>

 

Answered by Greg Marshall (gregm@cox.net) on April 19, 2002

<p>

Yes, Luther, but more and more people will die, including my fellow

Australians if George Bush doesn't stop "mouthing off and

antagonising his enemies". He is also creating new ones by

telling the world, "with us or against us". I have American friends

who are

scared of his words and fear even greater destruction than what

was witnessed on 9/11.

<p>

And mouthing off that Sadam is next! What, do they think that

Sadam doesn't watch this stuff on TV? He's probably sitting down

having a cup of tea with good old Osama as we speak. Sadam and

Osama are two men not to be antagonised, as it will just make the

situation more of a challenge for them- which is what they want.

<p>

Sure something has to be done, but can't it be kept a little

more quiet? I am glad that Austrlian Prime Minister John Howard is

sitting

back and not saying much. I feel safer this way. As much as

George bush needs to catch these men, he has not adressed the

problems that got America in problem to begin with. He should be

helping the poor in third world countries by spending much more

$$$ to rebuild the country (than already planned) they let be

destroyed over 20 years ago, when they trained Osama and the

Afgahans to fight and then left them to die. What was the

result? Modern day Afganistan.

<p>

By no means am I a political expert, but these are my feelings

and I don't wish to be flamed, and neither will I respond to replies

to

this post. Just my feelings....Done.

<p>

Answered by Kristian (leicashot@hotmail.com) on April 19, 2002.

<p>

Gregg -

<p>

Having been both a fighter pilot and a bomber pilot in my Air

Force career, I can tell you that the F-16 jockey in question truly is

dismayed, utterly sorry, confused, humiliated and depressed over

this mistake. He will be branded with this for life.The ROE's (rules

of engagement) change rapidly in a conflict such as the current

Afganaistan fiasco. In my career, I've never met a fighter pilot or

bomber pilot who would willingly and deliberately go on his own

to do what happened yesterday. Terrible mistakes do happen, but,

I'll clue you, they don't happen due to willful disobedience of

your mission briefing instructions. The "fog of war" takes on a

different

meaning in the air, as opposed to those ROE's on the ground or

at sea. You've got seconds to make up your mind - - not minutes,

hours or days.

<p>

Answered by George C. Berger (gberger@his.com) on April 19, 2002.

[tony_rowlett2]

Now, having half-way corrected my screw-up (yes, moderators have the

right to screw up every once in awhile), I must say that I object to

most of the posts in this thread beyond the, "There was a terrible

mistake made, we are very sorry for the tragic loss of life, and we

salute you, Canada..." but now there is a bunch of political

discussion which doesn't really belong in the forum. Warning: The

entire thread is in danger of being removed. I just want to say this

to warn anyone who deems this thread reasonable enough to print before

its demise. I've seen threads like this go to hell in a hand basket

many times before on this board and there is no reason to think it

cannot happen again. <p> You are, of course, welcome to flame me like

crazy...

[Alex_Es]

Friends,

 

<p>

 

Let me express my regrets for all the needless deaths that have

occurred on and after 9/ll. Just when we think we have completely

spent our capacity to grieve, an incident like this one comes along

and we see otherwise.

 

<p>

 

As there are other places for that purpose, I will not make a

political statement.

 

<p>

 

This terrible occurrence reminds us how uncertain and fragile life is.

This is what makes the moments we preserve on film precious.

 

<p>

 

May good fortune protect every one of you.

 

<p>

 

Alex

[luther_berry]

Tony,

 

<p>

 

You are correct. This thread was off topic at the start and has

deviated further into political discussion. My apologies for that.

I only thought it necessary to briefly let our Canadian friends know

that we grieve with them over the tragic incident.

 

<p>

 

Now that we have said this, perhaps it would be best to delete

this entire topic and let each person deal with the situation as they

deem appropriate. LB

[tony_rowlett2]

Luther, I think this was a great thread, and it was addressed to our

Canadian forum members, which makes it even better. I share your

sentiments.

[msitaraman]

I share the sentiment entirely.

 

<p>

 

Now how about a similar post for our Afghan allies killed by friendly

fire, to take but one example? I'm always struck by how we feel

empathy for those who are geographically and ethnically close to us,

and how little we feel for those who are not, no matter how grievous

the circumstances.

[emile_de_leon9]

Isn't it funny how our friends today are our ememies tomorrow in a

national sense....and visa versa.Just awhile ago Saddam was our

partner and friend in arms against Iran.... now he is our sworn

enemy.I'm sure if you owned a Leica or a Nikon in the 1940's and

displayed it proudly as we do today you would have been in big

trouble.I think people need to think a little more and not buy the

party line and blindly swallow it whole.Someone said awhile

ago ... "Americans must beware of the military industrial complex

gaining too much power" I'm paraphrasing here...but the man who said

this shortly after WW II was none other than General/President

Dwight D.Eisenhower.I think we should heed his sage advice.

[msitaraman]

"I'm sure if you owned a Leica or a Nikon in the 1940's and displayed

it proudly as we do today you would have been in big trouble."

 

<p>

 

Er, Emile, not quite. Many famous US war photographers used German

cameras in WWII because they were the best back then. I don't think

people were as doctrinaire back then as they are now.

 

<p>

 

For a perfect example, look at<a href=http://216.239.35.100/search?

q=cache:-a-

K3SMqX54C:www.cameraguild.co.jp/screwdriver/port01.html+robert+capa+co

ntax&hl=en>this picture</a>of George Rodger and Robert Capa, two of

the most famous Allied Photojournalists of their time, in full U.S.

uniform in 1943, proudly wearing their German Leica and Contax in

full sight.

 

<p>

 

Tony, sorry to go off-topic, but with this perfect a counter-example,

I couldn't help it ;-)

[msitaraman]

Hm, nothing worse than a slam-dunk fumbled :-(

<br><p>

 

<a href=http://www.cameraguild.co.jp/screwdriver/port01.html>Trying

again</a>

[msitaraman]

Note also that these titans used

 

<p>

 

1. Everready cases.

 

<p>

 

and

 

<p>

 

2. Only one or two camera bodies. No massive Domkes ;-)

[emile_de_leon9]

Funny you didn't mention any photogs using Japanese cameras.Hmmmmm I

wonder why???

[emile_de_leon9]

Come to think of it my dad used a Leica and Rollie through the war

years.But is that really the real issue here?

[nesrani]

The word "tragedy" should not be applied to regrettable accidents. It

always implies the underlying intention of an inscrutable and

unaccountable godlike power to frustrate basic aspirations through

violence, at least as far as I can recall from my student days. The

tragedy in Afghanistan, in this sense, is very real, but at quite

another level. The cost of "freedom" is indeed very high.

[richard_trochlil]

Two comments;

It was the Korean war where American photographers found out the

Japanese were making very good cameras and excellent lenses.

 

<p>

 

Friendly fire: There was a study in Viet Nam where it was found that

about 10% of the casualties were due to friendly fire. I am told the

military was astounded.