Trying to configure a flexible Lee system for my Hasselblad

[jil_tardiff]

Hi all,

<p>

I've been getting comfortable with my "new" MF gear over the past few months (nice bonus is that a

darkroom is a great refuge from a stressful career).

<p>

As the spring and summer seasons approach I am planning on putting together a versatile Lee-based

filter system that I can use with *both* my Hasselblad (all B60 lenses, 50-80-150) and my D2x (77mm

17-35 and 70-200). I have at least one 3-week trip to Yellowstone/Tetons/Glacier planned, so the

main use of the Lee system will be landscapes. I have some experience with Cokin P and a pair of ND

grads (HiTech and Singh-Ray) -- borrowed from a relative.

<p>

Having reviewed some shots from the past year I think that I (finally) need to invest in a polarizer for my

bigger lenses (I have one for my 50mm). I don't own a proshade for the Hassy, so I figured that one of

the Lee versions would work for both.

<p>

Putative gear list:

<ol>

<li>Lee Universal Hood </li>

<li> Lee foundation set</li>

<li>B60 to 77mm thread adapter</li>

<li>77mm Lee W/A adapter</li>

<li>Several 100 x 150 ND grads (Hitech or Lee) to start -- leaning towards soft, maybe a reversed. </

li>

</ol>

<p>

The "problem" is the polarizer. I can imagine that there will be situations where I want to combine a

polarizer and the ND grads. Quite frankly I have an entire series shot by a lake with the D2x that would

have been better that way. Lee's "approach" is to sell a 105mm lens adapter for the foundation set (and

of course a *very* expensive polarizer to match) -- obviously this is the easiest approach, in that the

light hits the polarizer first and it is easy to manipulate in concert with the ND grad. I am hesitating for

2 reasons. First, the price for a 105mm circ polarizer (B+W or Heliopan once I confirm they will work

with the Lee adapter) is much higher than the comparable 77mm polarizer. Second, this seems like it

will make the polarizer cumbersome to use on the Hassy without the Lee holder, for example, when I

don't need a grad -- it would require both the B60-77, then 77-105 to attach the filter without the Lee

holder.

<p>

The other approach, of course, would be to go with a 77mm polarizer, but that may be difficult to use

with grads. If possible, I would prefer it -- but as we all know, too much fiddling = deciding to not

"bother" with the gear in question.

<p>

And I haven't even started to work the hood into the equation...

<p>

Sorry to be long-winded, but I've been chewing on this for awhile and want to make my purchase soon

so I can get comfortable with the gear before I travel.

<p>

All advice/suggestions appreciated, thanks!

<p>

JT

[fwstutterheim]

Jil, <p>

All I can say is I have the Lee filter-holder with the polariser adaptor ring and the Lee 105

mm polariser. Yes, it was expensive but I saw no other way to achieve what I wanted. I use no

hood but use the hat I am wearing as a shield when necessary and it works fine. <p>Ferdi.

[db1]

Is this one of the screw on filter holders that have screws that tighten onto the lens?

 

They do too much damage to even consider.

[curt wiler]

First of all, I think you are going in the right direction. I have found that 77mm lenses (like the Nikon standard) need longer filters such as 100 x 150mm to give enough adjustment with GNDs, so I have gone to the Lee system for GNDs with both my Nikon and Hasselblad systems. For polarizers, I use the standard screw-in 77mm size and mount the Lee adapter to the front thread if I am using a polarizer. The Lee hood can rotate on its adapter. This way I can use the same polarizers for shooting with the Nikon lenses and hoods and no GND, which is what I want maybe 90% of the time. I am using the Lee "Wide Angle Double Filter Hood".

 

I also have an older Cokin P system that I use with 67mm filters on the Hasselblad if I am shooting with that alone. It is much more convenient because the Hasselblad hoods fit over the 67mm filters, or you replace the H hoods with the Cokin adapter and filter holder and hood when you want to use a GND (no, I don't use Cokin filters - I prefer HiTech or Singh-Ray), but I only have this system because I started with smaller Nikon lenses.

[nikos peri]

I use a similar setup, with 77mm threads for the Nikon lenses, B60 for the Hassie, and use 67

and 77mm threads for LF - all with the Lee system. I've always heard that the polariser

should be in front of every other filter, so one work around for me is to thread the 77mm

polarizer (requires front threads on the polariser) onto the 77mm adapter ring, and then

simply slot that adapter ring into one of the filter slots of the Lee holder. Naturally, that

means the 77mm adapter is used holding the polarizer, and can't be used on the 77mm

lenses unless you have two of them. Still, cheaper than any other way I've found.<p>

I don't use hoods if I'm using the Lee stuff, prefering to shade the front of the lens myself if

need be.

[jil_tardiff]

It sure is nice to know that I am not alone in trying to work this out!

 

I think I am leaning towards the 77mm approach that Curt and Nikos are using. It seems

to me that you are both doing basically the same thing-- using a 77mm Lee adapter in

one of the filter slots? This seems like what Lee does with the 105mm attachment, am I

correct? I am not 100% sure about the geometry. I should probably go ahead and invest in

the basic setup and a 77mm polarizer to experiment, but that is a very good idea that I

hadn't thought about. Any problems with vignetting?

 

And I think I will start off with the hat as hood method -- always worked for my dad...

 

Curt-- that's a great idea about the standard Cokin P, I have an old setup on semi-

permanent loan that I should just try with the 67mm.

 

I feel like I am making some real progress!

 

JT

[nikos peri]

I think Curt is using the polariser first on the lesn, and then the filter adaèter threaded onto

the front threads of the pol. Mechanically, that works of course, but I've always been told that

the polariser should be in front of other filters... athough not entirely sure why. If Joe Cornish

says so; I mindlessly obey! :-)<p>

Vignetting with my setup? Non really, but I rarely go to superwide lengths. You do need to

take care to center the polariser in the slot. You can also reduce the number of filter slots on

the holder if need be to keep things "flatter".

[curt wiler]

Yes, I am using the polarizer first on the lens and placing the Lee adapter on top of that. I have heard the same advice about having the polarizer in front of any other filters, but only in the context of a stack of round filters, which makes sense because it is easier to adjust in that position. Note also, the Cokin system is designed to place their polarizer in the rear. I believe Lee is silent on this question, but at least one of their catalog illustrations shows a wide slot presumably for a polarizer also at the rear. I don't know of any optical reason why it would matter, but would be glad to hear from anyone who is truly knowledgeable. In any case, I have not personally had a problem but then I would only use at most one other filter - a GND - in front.

 

RE: vignetting: I am using the wide-angle hood with two filter slots built-in; when collapsed it is quite shallow. This is also the cheapest way to go for a basic kit. The problem is carrying it since it is quite large in your bag. I use an external belt case that Kinesis made just for this purpose. It also holds 3 filters in addition to the hood.

[neilambrose]

<p>Lee filters are a good choice. I've shot a lot of landscapes and use nothing else. I'm

not a fan of lens mounted filters. Although I bought some when I was starting out, I've

found them awkward to use in combination, and nothing like as convenient or flexible as

the Lee system.</p>

 

<p>I suggest you need the polariser ring. This is a much better choice than just using the

polariser in the regular holder and then rotating it. If you do the latter then you'll get

serious vignetting on a 50mm lens and wider when the polariser is rotated outside of 90

or 180 degrees. Although you'll find it works okay on longer lenses.</p>

 

<p>Be aware also that the universal hood is a limited use option. You won't be able to use

the polariser ring with it, and it will allow only two filters. I sometimes use my hood

mounted on the front of the normal filter holder; this configuration then allow up to three

filters. There's plenty of times when you may need two ND grads and a polariser, or two

grads and warm-up, for example.</p>

 

<p>For what it's worth, my ideal kit contains both the pro filter holder, the polariser ring

and the hood. Each is useful for a specific application, and I've found plenty of situations

when I've needed them all in my bag. Not necessarily to use all at the same time, but

frequently all on the same day. If you have to drop one then drop the hood; it's perfectly

possible to shade the lens using a hat or similar, but there's no way to remove vignetting if

you need to rotate your polariser on a wide lens.</p>

[david_henderson]

For me the answer was made easier by the realisation that my 50mm Bronica lens needed a slim polariser anyway, so given I also carry a std polariser which I much like, I was faced with the possibility that I was heading for three polarisers -one of them a big expensive one for the front of my HiTech holder.

 

Realising that I didn'r want to use a grad and polariser together very often, I thought this was a step too far, so bought a slim polariser with front threads into which I screw the adapter ring when necessary. I set the polariser before slotting the filter holder into place and adding the grad itself. All this works fine except with my 50mm lens where the combination does vignette and I must admit I either hold or Blu-Tac the grad in place on top of the polariser- but again not too often since a wide angle and polariser are very often not a successful combination.

 

In any case you'd have to adapt all this because of your Canon lenses. But if you got a slim 77mm polariser with front threads and a B60 to 77mm step-up ring, then I doubt that the Hasselblad 50 with the 77mm polariser and then a Lee wideangle adapter and holder would vignette anyway. You could also use a hood on the front of all this, though I have to say I find all these self-supporting bellows type hoods inexact and a PITA.

 

Just a quick comment on other thigs you mention. If you go for Lee holders, be aware that through Hitech also make 100mm filters, they are not as thick as the Lee filters and might make it hard to hold the filter in place without slippage. Maybe someone else can comment, but in general I'd suggest that if you want to use HiTech filters then their hardware would fit best.

[jil_tardiff]

More food for thought -- a the points for and against both approaches are well-taken.

 

Neil -- (I really enjoyed your gallery, BTW), yup, the potential for vigenetting is what led

me to the 105mm on the front approach originally. I think I also need to assess which

camera will be used more on this trip, certainly the D2x, but I've been enjoying the

Hasselblad so much that I don't want to slight it. If I went with the 105mm approach I

could easily use that polarizer on the D2x "straight" with just a 77-105 step-up. The price

difference between the two approaches (77-based vs 105 based) is about $100 in the end.

Given what I have spent on film camera gear lately (including a user M3 and a 50 DR

Summicron <grin>) this is not a big deal when measured over the lifetime of the gear and

the fact that I don't have to obsess over vignetting.

 

As David pointed out, chances are I may end up having to spring for a dedicated polarizer

for my Hassy at some point -- maybe go with a bay60 - 67mm, then a nice heliopan linear

polarizer. Up until now I have only shot B&W in the Hassy -- and I don't normally use a

polarizer for that. But I will be shooting some color with it out west, and the ND grads will

be very useful. It would be nice to just be able to pop the polarizer on, putting the

adapter on the polarizer sounds fiddly.

 

And I'm definitely holding off on the hood for now.

 

One additional question for you folks using the Lee with the B60 (esp. the 50mm CF) -- do

you use the "regular" Lee B60 adapter? They don't seem to make a WA version of it. Or do

you step-up to 77mm and use the 77 WA ?

 

Oh, David-- good points about the fit of the HiTech's, actually the HiTech I have on loan

doesn't fit very well in the Cokin P either. I will probably stick with Lee for the most part,

but I really like the Singh-Rays as well (big bucks).

 

Thanks to all for the continuing input. Turned me into a subscriber!

 

JT

[curt wiler]

As a general comment, I would like to say this has been one of the best discussions I have seen lately on photo.net because the inputs have been based on everyone's real experience. Too often "opinion" and "fact" are based on hearsay. We each have our own way of working, and find the way that works best for ourselves.

 

I find that I use a polarizer for landscape maybe half the time, more if I am in slickrock country. I like to be able to work compactly, having one on each lens ready to use during these shoots. Thus the 77mm filters directly on the Nikon lenses, and 67mm with adapters (where applicable) on the H'blads. For the small percentage of cases where I want a GND, I take the manufacturer's hood off the lens and mount the Lee system (or just hold the GND flat against the front of the lens and shade it with my hand). Perhaps this is a result of my early PJ-type shooting. Works for me. Certainly if I came from a large-format background I would work differently.

 

On the question about the 50 CF vignetting, I have the CFi version which is Bay 70 so I can't comment directly. However, in all cases I go directly to 77mm and use the 77 WA adapter. I have never had a problem, even with the 50mm CFi, although I need to keep the hood completely collapsed for this lens.

 

Lastly, I stopped using linear polarizers some time ago because I wanted to be able to use any filter on any lens on any body, as long as it fits. I still use 52 /62 / 67 / 72 /82 mm lenses on the Nikons at times. Keeping it simple doesn't cost much more. In any event, polarizers tend to die after some years so I simply didn't replace the linear ones.

[nikos peri]

"One additional question for you folks using the Lee with the B60 (esp. the 50mm CF) -- do you use the "regular" Lee B60 adapter? They don't seem to make a WA version of it. Or do you step-up to 77mm and use the 77 WA ?"<p>

The Lee adapter for B60 is actually already recessed as the bayonet on the Hassie lenses in on the side of the barrel, not a thread in front like, say, the Nikons. Therefore, there is one adapter and there is no chance of it vignetting on the 50mm.<p>

As for the Nikon, I missed the part where you said it was a D2x... I have had no trouble using the 17-35mm f/2.8 on film (i.e. full frame) with all four slots mounted on the filter holder. Using a 1.5x field of view on the same lens means you should easily avoid any vignetting. For the threaded adapter ring, I have found no downside to the wide-angle adapter over the standard one, with only one exception. The 28-70mm f/2.8 retracts as you zoom, and the w/a adapter blocks that action.

[neilambrose]

<p><em>The Lee adapter for B60 is actually already recessed as the bayonet on the Hassie lenses in on the side of the barrel, not a thread in front like, say, the Nikons. Therefore, there is one adapter and there is no chance of it vignetting on the 50mm.</em></p>

 

<p>The thing that usually causes the vignetting isn't the ring itself; it's the filter holder mounted on the front. If you build the holder using all possible pieces that are supplied (i.e. to hold 2 thin filters and 2 thick filters), it ends up being exactly long enough to cause critical vignetting on a 50CF or a 50CFi. I'm talking from bitter experience :-)</p>

 

<p>A possible workaround is to have two filter holders and build one of them to take only a single filter, for use with wide angle lenses. Of course, bad luck if you want to use filters in combination. It's worth pointing out that the issue is only significant with polarisers, since generally speaking they're the only filters than tend to be used off the hoizontal or vertical axis. And that's why the good folks at Lee invented the polariser ring, which resolves the problem fully.</p>

[sergei_antonov]

I saw that Lee and other companies make square 100mm polarizer, that could be used like any other filter. Those filters are also comparable cheaper. Does anyone tried this?

Additional note: in my experience Hitech grad filters are too short. They are 125mm long, not 150 like Lee's. I am using number of color and ND filters from Hitech in Lee holder, never had any problems with slipping.

[neilambrose]

<p>Sergei - see above post. This is what happens when using the 100x100 square polariser in the normal filter holder. A round polariser in the polariser ring is the optimum solution for wide-angle lenses.</p>