Manual SLR, Low Light.....Need External Light Meter?

[christina_tullo]

Hi, I'm somewhat new to this site, but I've been poking around a bit, seems really knowledgable. Anyway,

I'm shooting with a Manual Nikon SLR, I'm shooting black and white film, but I'm often shooting in areas

with low light. I'm using a 50mm 1.8 lens, and I'm trying to close up my fstop ring to try and keep a

decent DOF of my shots, I'm doing many interiors. Anyway, I'm running into an issue where my exposures

are consistently 1 second, 2 seconds, 4 seconds or more. That's fine and all, but I'm having a problem

getting a correct exposure. Basically what's going on is, the light meter in my camera says not enough

light. Ok, fine. so maybe the shutter is set to 2 seconds. I will cycle through every f-stop on that lens ring

and not a single one will change that not enough light reading. So ok, fine, change the shutter speed to a

slower one- the next slowest one is 4 seconds. Now there's TOO MUCH light. And every f-stop I try says

there is too much. Granted I am photographing very rought light situations- I photograph ruins, and

sometimes I am in a dark room with a blown out window or the like. But I can't seem to find a correct

exposure that my camera approves of!!!! I know the light meter works fine. Should I get a different camera

body with better shutter speeds to choose from? I have an FM10, A very basica camera, and the shutter

speeds stop at about 4 seconds I believe before I have to choose Bulb.

 

Actually that brings me to another question- I don't mind long exposures, but I can't set my camera for

anything longer than 4 seconds without needing to do bulb. Is there a manual nikon body that would have

longer preset shutter speeds? Or do you think I should start learning to use a light meter? I know they are

much more reliable in weird lighting than a camera's overall meter. If that is the route i should take, can

someone reccomend A. a light meter that is not too expensive, I am on a budget here, and B. Where I can

read up on light meter usage? I don't have any knowledge on the types of light meters (spot, incident, etc)

and how to use them.

 

Thanks so much for everyone's help in advance. I really appreciate it.

 

Christina

[doug grosjean]

I doubt your camera has a meter with sufficient lattitude to meter accurately in such low light.

 

I shoot a lot of situtions similar to yours: dimly lit museums. Usually the Henry Ford / Greenfield Village, in ambient light. Totally different look to the results than a modern camera with flash - if you're curious ping me at douggrosjean@wcnet.org and I'll share a sample with you.

 

My meter, a $75 Tundra D-3B, goes down to around EV1-EV2 (Google on "Ultimate Exposure Calculator" for an excellent explanation of EV "exposure values"), which is a pretty dim room. It has reflected and incident light reading ability.

 

I use a medium-format twin-lens reflex camera, which is fully manual, a tripod, a cable release, and a black card.

 

I meter on my hand in light that's similar to the subject, then add a stop to that reading. I figure out which settings I want to use, usually the smallest aperture that will let me complete the shot with a minute or so of exposure. I focus, compose, set the F and shutter, and then hold the black card in front of the lens. Then I trip the shutter, wait a second or so for any vibes to dissipate, and remove the black card and start the timer.

 

When the time is up, I put the black card in front of the lens again (don't bump it), and close the shutter.

 

I get great depth-of-field, most pedestrians / walkers simply disappear if the exposure is a minute or so.

 

If it's dimmer than the above? Never has been, but at that point I'd probably look at the "Ultimate Exposure Calculator" and find something close, and bracket.

 

Good luck!

 

Doug Grosjean

[doug grosjean]

<<< Should I get a different camera body with better shutter speeds to choose from? I have an FM10, A very basica camera, and the shutter speeds stop at about 4 seconds I believe before I have to choose Bulb. >>>>

 

Bulb is fine; use a cable release and most cameras can do Bulb for exposures measured in minutes. Longest exposures I've done were around 20 minutes, snow, moonlit night landscape.

 

<<< Actually that brings me to another question- I don't mind long exposures, but I can't set my camera for anything longer than 4 seconds without needing to do bulb. Is there a manual nikon body that would have longer preset shutter speeds? >>>>

 

I doubt it. I haven't seen one. My modern electronic N80 can go higher, I think 30 minutes.... but that control is on an LCD display, not a dial.

 

<< Or do you think I should start learning to use a light meter? >>>

 

Probably yes.

 

 

 

<<< I know they are much more reliable in weird lighting than a camera's overall meter. If that is the route i should take, can someone reccomend A. a light meter that is not too expensive, I am on a budget here, and B. Where I can read up on light meter usage? I don't have any knowledge on the types of light meters (spot, incident, etc) and how to use them. >>>>

 

See above, about (I think it's Ken Parker's) Ultimate Exposure Calculator.

[stephen hazelton]

It sounds like you are just beyond the range of your meter. Your camera manual should give you the range that you can meter.

 

If you buy a separate meter, it may have the same problem- check the range first. I think the Scout and Pilot, the two cheapest meters around, both have limited metering ranges as well, and you have to go up a step or two in quality to get expanded range. You can pull up meters on B&H's site, then look at the specs, and it will give the metering range in EV's.

 

Metering range will vary from camera model to model, so you may be able to get a different Nikon body that does the metering you want. Generally, "pro" bodies, more expensive bodies, and newer-model bodies will meter low light better.

 

On my K1000, metering senstivity drops as the battery loses power, so make sure you have fresh batteries. Also, on my K1000, you can meter a lower light range with a faster lens (IE, I can meter levels with a f/1.4 lens that I can't with an f/8 lens, even when both are set at f/8). Also, some combinations of settings just can't be metered- there again, it's in the manual (example; ISO 25 at 1/500 gives a dead meter, regardless of light level). I don't know how much your camera would have in common with mine on these kinds of issues.

 

It's not exactly a metering issue, but when you get into long exposures, you need to check up on reciprocity failure as well. This wouldn't affect meter operation, but could cause problems in the negative itself.

 

If you don't do this kind of work a lot, just guess and bracket. It may mean shooting a half-dozen frames instead of 1. If half your work is in this kind of light, that would get tedious and expensive.

[christina_tullo]

Thanks for everyone's help. I really appreciate it.

 

When I'm shooting in these extreme light situations, I am often shooting with both the

35mm bw slr and also my d50, a dslr. The light meter on the dslr is able to handle these

lighting situations and give me readings. if I have the same exact lens on both cameras, a

50mm 1.8, could I use the light meter reading off the dslr as a guide and just kind of

bracket around that you think? I know film and digital are two completely different beasts.

But film is slightly more forgiving in exposure and light than digital.....BUT I know the

sensor on the dslr magnifies the lens length by 1.5....so would that be a bad idea? Or does

anyone have any idea if I can just as a rule always expose a stop or two above or below

what that meter is telling me for my bw exposures? Just wondering if anybody had any

experience in this.

 

It's amazing, I've been doing photo for years, but with automatic cameras, you never

realize what you really DON'T know until you begin entering situations like this, where

your knowledge needs to extend beyond your equipment's capabilities.

[robert lee]

"...a light meter that is not too expensive, I am on a budget here..."

 

I use a Gossen Digisix. It's about $140. This is a tiny, rugged little thing that fits in your pocket; runs on a lithium button cell. Sensitivity is from EV 0 to 18.

 

It's very quick to use. The meter reports back in resolution of 1/3 of EV. Once you get a reading, rotate the calculator dial to match, and all shutter speed and aperture combinations (at the measured EV) can be read off.

 

The meter is also a great aid in learning how to judge the dynamic range of a scene by eye.

 

A light meter is an interesting proposition. It's one of those things that doesn't get used often, but when you need it, you really need it.

[doug grosjean]

I'm pretty sure that if both cameras were set to the same ISO and had the same length lens and the same aperture, that the reccomended exposure given by the DSLR would apply to both. But why not test for yourself, in light condition that both cameras can deal with? If the cameras agree in sunlight, and in shadow, and then at dusk, they prolly also agree in the dim lights you're shooting in. Wouldn't hurt to add 1-2 steps of exposure to the film camera to try to compensate for reciprocity failure (Google on it - just means that the film chemistry doesn't react as well at really long exposures).

 

Agreed that photography has so many nooks and crannies that it's impossible for any one person to know them all. My own photography knowledge really grew when I went to fully-manual old medium-format TLR.

[helenbach]

The Gossen Profisix (Luna Pro SBC or something like that outside Europe) is one of the most sensitive meters around, and you can get them quite cheaply on eBay - less than $100 usually. They measure to EV -8 at ISO 100 (EV is meaningless as a measure of brightness unless it is accompanied by a film speed. ISO 100 is the usual reference film speed for meter sensitivity).

 

Best,

Helen

[stephen hazelton]

If both cameras are metering the same area, they ought to give the same reading at the same f/stop, regardless of the focal length. Meters are not real exact anyway, so don't expect this to exactly happen. But it's probably close enough.

 

I think on a lot of zooms, the actual f/stop varies some from that marked as it zooms, so that could through things off a tad.

[tobiasfeltus]

A couple of notes.

 

your camera is fine. some of the best low light photography was taken by the likes of Eugene Atget, who would have been using a primitive camera in a pre-lightmeter era.

 

Ansel Adams was also great at dealing with metering. it is his legacy. One rather good book is this book

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Examples-Making-Photographs-Ansel-Adams/dp/082121750X/sr=8-6/qid=1164278865/ref=pd_ka_6/202-1480049-4621452?ie=UTF8&s=books

 

in which he discusses the making of some images, including some nocturnal ones. i found this to be a very good resource in the early years.

 

 

Another suggestion, but then it is down to the limitaion of your meter, is to change your ASA settings by using this other old technique:

 

http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=000qbJ

 

 

and finally, the Gossen Lunasix was called such as it was allegedly sensitive enough to meter at night. Even the early Lunasix 3 is a good meter, and easy to use, though you have to make sure you get one that uses a PP3 battery and not a mercury cell, as they are hard to find.

 

good luck,

T

[Robert_Lai]

Christina,<p>I have a Nikon F3, which goes down to 8 seconds on the shutter speed dial. Beyond that, it's not too hard to use the second hand on your wrist watch to do the timing manually with a cable release. In the automatic mode, it will time for up to an hour if need be.<p>However, for interior scenes which will have windows illuminating a darker space, you need a tripod and an incident meter. I use a Gossen Lunasix F, which is available on ebay and elsewhere for about $100. It is very sensitive. Mine uses a commonly available 9V battery (the rectangular kind). If you use the camera's reflected light meter, then the bright light from the windows will fool it into underexposing the interior. With the incident light meter, you go to the main subject, and you point the meter TOWARDS the CAMERA. The camera is tripod mounted. You will then have a reading of the amount of light falling upon the subject, from the direction of the camera. Walk over to the camera, adjust aperture and shutter speed according to the reading on your meter, and shoot.<p>To reduce the effect of blown out windows, you can turn on as much interior illumination as you can obtain. Also, wait for a cloudy day, or shoot towards sunset, so that the scene outside the windows matches the brightness of the scene you're photographing within.