Grey Market - pros and cons

[david_carson]

Hello,

 

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I'm wondering the pros and cons of buying Leica equipment from, say, Delta

International. I've bought gray stuff through B&H, and if I have any warrenty

problems, I can send them the lenses. How would it work with Delta and others,

and have any of you had experiences you'd like to share? I notice B&H doesn't sell

gray market Leica, so I'm a bit nervous about that.

 

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Dave

 

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ps. I searched as best as I could for similar questions, but there's no search

function that I can see for this site.

[john_chan2]

Dave,

 

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Most of my stuff (nay) all of my stuff is either second hand or gray

market. I don't see a big problem buying lenses gray market

(especially M lenses) because they lack the aperture cam of SLR lenses

thus making them very simple and VERY hard to break. The only thing

that can go wrong with M lenses is fogging (maybe faulty lubricants in

new) and you dropping them from a great distance. If this is a

concern then buy with the Leica USA warranty as this kind of thing is

covered. For the bodies, again, the rangefinder mechanism is quite

complex but robust and it would take a big jostle to mis-align it. It

could've come mis-aligned from the factory (not WITHOUT the realm of

possibilities with Leica!).

 

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Delta International and D. Chatterton (as well as many other reputable

Leica resellers) usually allow you a minimum 10 day grace period to

check over the merchandise. If you are adamant about utilizing this

inspection period it could save you quite a few headaches as well as

some $$$$$$$.

 

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Cheers,

[joshroot]

If you look through the neighbor-to-neighbor section of photo.net,

most people report having nothing but good experiences with Delta

International. And their E-bay feedback is good also. But I've never

bought anything from them, so I can't really say. My only grey market

experiences have been through B&H for Nikon SLR stuff.

 

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Josh

[steve_hoffman]

Hi John,

 

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I have bought Leica stuff from Betty at Delta International several

times. She is prompt, responsible, and very easy to get hold of.

Delta has a GREAT track record on the Photo Net "Camera Store" site,

and they want to keep it that way, I'm sure. If they send you

something that you don't like, I'm sure they would take care of you.

Also, they have a three year fix-it thing with Mack. How great they

are at Leica service, I don't know, but some of these gray companies

offer you nothing...

 

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Don't be put off by Delta's below average website. They have the

good camera stuff there for amazing prices, brand new.

 

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On the other hand, David, if a "USA" store is having a "Leica Day"

10% off sale, plus the Leica USA two hundred buck rebate, the price

for (let's say) an M6 is ALMOST the same. Lenses, too. In that case,

I would go for the USA version...

 

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More confused than ever? Sorry...

[jay_.]

Another possibility is to order direct from an authorized Leica

dealer like Tin Cheung in Hongkong and have it shipped to you. The

cost is the same or in some cases less than buying gray-market in the

US, and the international warranty remains intact.

[phil_stiles3]

Do you know of a web site for the Hong Kong dealers? I've heard they

do have the world's best prices, although it is very convenient to be

able to return an item by handing it over the counter at your local

dealer. In the Nikon world, I don't hesitate to buy lenses grey, but

flashes and bodies I like to have the USA warranty. I've used it

often. I can't believe how strong the used market is, considering the

lowered cost of new M bodies.

[bobtodrick]

I'd like to take a crack at this one. I've sold Leica (and have been

a user) for 20 years. Here's how it goes. You come to me on a

regular basis, supporting the business I work for with your dollars.

You call me on a regular basis for information on film deveoping

times, which lenses work best for a given application, and even if I

know of a good sushi restaraunt (I'm serious here). Anyway you've

purchased your Leica gear from me at a fair market value. It craps

out (it does happen) just before you go on vacation and it is either

on or off warranty. Your desperate because you know this is your

most used focal lenght and we know it's going to be weeks before your

lens is back from repair. So I give you a loaner (either a used lens

or a demo) and everyone is happy. On the other hand you come to me

with your grey market lens that you saved some dough on, ask if I can

help you out, and guess what the answer is. Anyone who deals on a

regular basis with a reputable dealer will tell you that it is cheap

insurance for the help they can give you. It is a different matter

if you don't have a good dealer close by, they you may as well save

your dollars (or whatever), but I have scores of customers whom I've

helped over the years, who are faithful to me as a salesperson and to

tell the truth I don't have the time of day for someone and their

problems who has bought grey market. END OF RANT!

[steve_hoffman]

Bob, I wish my local Leica dealer was like you. Trouble is, he

ain't! Can we clone you?

[edward_steinberg]

Hi,

 

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My experience is that local USA dealer�s like Bob Todrick are

uncommon. I too would like to clone him, because he may be a dinosaur

in this digital economy. My opinion is that local camera retailers

are being driven out of business by stiff competition from the well

financed majors, drug store chains who do film processing, digital

cameras without film and internet pricing. For the most part, Leica

equipment is quickly becoming a commodity unless there is something

valued added by a retailer.

 

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It is very hard to justify the cost of a Leica lens from a local

dealer, unless you get some value added, as Bob Todrick stated in the

professional way he conducts his business. Usually, USA prices are

significantly higher than Delta International, Tin Chen in Hong Kong

or those on e-bay. The savings can be very considerable. My

experience is the chances of a lens; accessory or some other item not

working properly is quite rare. Unless you are a very heavy user of

a lens, I am not sure that the Leica Passport Protection is anything

more than an insurance policy that raises the costs for consumers and

makes money for Leica USA. Therefore, for me, buying a gray market

lens is a no-brainer.

 

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My general rule of thumb has been in the past to buy USA for Leica

cameras. If I were going to spend serious money I would wait for a

Leica day somewhere. Normally, B & H or other American retailers

will discount 10% and match the price when someone has a �Leica day�

anywhere in the USA. As I have mentioned before, I like Ken Hansen

photo on Madison Avenue in NYC, especially on trades, and will ante-

up more money for what they bring to the table.

 

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Today, however, I would not hesitate to buy any camera from Delta

International providing it had a return policy (as it has in most

situations) and a warranty they or the original manufacturer backed.

Good luck.

 

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Eddie

[dan_brown4]

I agree about the value of the local dealer. But,... the Internet is changing

everything. The dealer is no longer the best source of information. Yes, the

dealer has inventory (but B&H can get you anything in 24 hours), and a

friendly relationship with someone you trust is valuable. The dealers now

have to compete with the B&H's and Delta Int'l's of the world. They are

cutting margins and growing in their demographics (or they are dying).

Hence, they must control costs and fight to be competitive. I don't know

where this is heading, but the world is changing for sure. Take ebay for

example, how many here have placed a classified in the local paper to sell an

old lens in the last year?

 

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As for grey market, well you do risk a warranty issue, but how often do Leica

lenses and bodies break? Not often, it feels like a pretty safe bet. BTW, DI's

lenses come with a MAC three year warranty (and I don't know how good that

is). Don Chatterton give a one year warranty of his own making.

 

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Look at is this way, a 35 'cron from DI is $1124, how much does your dealer

charge? Even B&H gets $1495 after rebate. Hmm?

[david_smith12]

I purchased my M6 from Don Chatterton. It was second hand billed as

mint-. It only had some minor wear on the battery door. Otherwise I

couldn't tell it had been used. Came in a box with all the trimmings.

 

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He has a 90 day warranty for his used stuff. Indeed, the vertical RF

was out of alignment slightly. I think it may have become that way

from my handling and use. I can't be sure.

 

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I'm sure of one thing. When I called Mr. Chatterton, he had me send

the camera to Dan Goldberg for adjustment at his (Chatterton's)

expense.

 

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That cinched the deal for me. I tend to buy second hand merchandise

that is most recent. I believe Don Chatterton is a certified

dealer. I don't know if he sells grey market stuff. I'm sticking

with a dealer. I've had to send both my Konica and Leica stuff back

to the dealers for this and that and had excellent service in both

cases. I figure a Leica is a luxury item. If I can afford the

merchandise, I can afford the dealer. In addition, like him or not,

Don Chatterton has given me great advice. That also is worth $$ to

me.

 

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There's an old doctor joke many of you may have heard in some

iteration or another. Goes like this:

 

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A urologist calls plumber to the house because water stopped at the

faucet. Plumber comes and gravely survey's the situation. With

worried look and much consternation on his face the plumber amazes

the urologist by pulling out a pipe wrench, and strikes a basement

pipe with one mighty blow.

 

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"Your water will flow fine now," commented the plumber. "That will

be five hundred dollars please."

 

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Sure enough, the faucet ran like a cow peeing on a flat rock.

 

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The stunned urologist exclaimed with religeous indignation, "Five

hundred dollars and all you did was strike the pipe once. Why I'm a

famous doctor with people's lives at stake and I don't charge that

much."

 

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The somber plumber replied, "I know. I didn't charge that much when

I was in urology either. I didn't charge you for striking the pipe.

I charged you for knowing WHERE to strike the pipe."

 

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There are several moral's to the story. First, this ng provide's a

wonderful opportunity for me to tell very bad jokes.

 

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Also, people tend to get paid more for what they know than what they

do.

 

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Me, I'm sticking with a dealer. Whether it's Leica's or your private

parts, better stay with someone that know's how to handle the

merchandise. (Or where to strike it) Sure, it costs more but it's a

lot less painful that way.

[jay_.]

For me the decision is very often dependent on the price

differential. I've noted that the difference between Nikkor lenses

(other than the super-teles)is sometimes $50 or less, which isn't

sufficient for me to chance the need for a repair--particularly since

Nikon USA won't even repair gray-market goods for a fee. Some gray-

market prices on Leica bodies and lenses differ from USA Passport

models by $100. There, on a lens I might go with the gray, but

certainly not on a body, especially an R body, which DAG and Sherry K

won't service. The cost of *each* repair incident can be more than

$300 at Leica USA. Buying from an authorized dealer in another

country is another thing enitrely. Cayman Camera has sold new

Hasselblad equipment for about the cost of mint-used in the US, and

AFAIK Hasselblad USA honors the int'l warranty. Similarly, Leica USA

is bound by the international warranty on items purchased from

*authorized* dealers anywhere in the world. Rob't White in the UK

sells Billingham and Gitzo for a huge discount compared to US

prices. I do patronize my local camera store *heavily*...for used

items, and whenever the price differential on a new item is not so

huge that I feel like an idiot shelling out the extra bucks. I

consider camera stores are not charitable institutions deserving of

my philanthropy, no matter how nice they treat me. We all have to

deal with the realities of competition, and the issue of real vs

perceived value on the part of our customers/clients/patients. A

camera store is predominantly a *retail* operation, not a service

business or a professional practice. In-store service can only

justify a certain level of price difference. It is unrealistic for a

camera store owner to expect customers to pay hefty premiums or

subsidize his existence in return for his helpful attitude or

service. His issue is with the US distriutors, why they can't

wholesale him products so that he can sell them competitively in what

is now irreversibly a global market.

[bill_lee2]

I recently posted a question about Leica prices in Hong Kong and I

got some great advice and help from Eddie, Hoyin, and Wayne. Take a

look at this thread:

 

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http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=005kqF

 

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Tin Cheung grey prices are at www.tincheungcamera.com.hk

 

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The Leica agent in Hong Kong is Schmidt & Co. You can find a list of

authourized Leica dealers and the official price list of all Leica

equipment in Hong Kong at their website www.schmidtgroup.com

 

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I will be traveling to Hong Kong in August and I plan on buying a

grey market M6 for US$1400, which comes with a Leica Germany

warranty. The price of an official product with a one year

international warranty after some bargaining should be $1550. It is

unlikely that there will be anything wrong with a grey market

camera. In the event that there is a problem, and although Leica

Canada will not touch grey market and Leica New Jersey will fix it

but charge me, I can take the $150 and send it to Leica Germany for

warranty repair.

 

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I'll post my experience when I get back.

[bobtodrick]

Just a point for all those to consider who see the savings in grey

market. Presumably you all do something for a living, which most of

the time in some way or another provides a product of a service.

You've probably spent years developing your skills and consider

yourselves ethical and hardworking. Would you really like to think

that people in your neigbourhood were going online - buying your

product or service for 10% less elsewhere, hoping they will never need

the goodwill you probably provide. It's called

[john_fleetwood]

I wish I had a local Leica dealer.

[ray_moth]

A camera manufacturer should honour its warranty, regardless of where

the camera was bought, "grey" or otherwise. I can understand a

dealership refusing to provide warranty service on "grey" items but

the manufacturer has a duty to its end users - unless the camera was

stolen, of course!

 

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So, if I bought a Leica camera in Indonesia, where there is no longer

a Leica distributor (it went belly-up), I would not be at all pleased

if the camera turned out to be defective but Leica in Solms refused

to honour its 5-year warranty.

 

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Regards, Ray

[wayne_murphy7]

It is refreshing to hear of people like Bob Todrick.

 

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In Australia, dealers will try to be helpful sometimes if they

believe that you will definitely buy a camera/lens at the very high

local prices. The difficulty in being "loyal" to local dealers is

that their advice is not always correct and as for lending cameras -

forget it.

 

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Leica customers are generally very knowledgable and often know more

about the product and its performance than the dealer's staff.

 

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The real problem here is that I can buy from Hong Kong, for example,

a new, officially-imported R8 body from an authorised dealer, ship it

to Australia, pay the local 10% tax and it will cost me AU$2,550.

The best local price is AU$3,200 and that is because there are

special prices on R8s at this time. Previously, the best price was

AU$3,800.

 

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That will give me a camera with a fully valid international

warranty. I can live without dealer "support" for the saving. I

have spoken to the major dealers several times about the price

difference and they point the finger at the agent. No one will

discuss cost prices, however, so I can't establish why the prices are

as they are.

 

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I would happily buy locally if the prices were somewhere close.

[bobtodrick]

Well, this has been a bit of an eye opener. At the store where I

work at the 'senior' sales staff totals 5 people, with a total of 122

years experience in photography. This includes people who are well

published (National Geo, Formula 1 Magazine and others), commerical

and wedding work, and two (myself included) who are represented by

established local galleries. All but one is still shooting on a

regular basis. 3 of us are Leica users. I know of at least three or

four other stores in our area (that being Western Canada) that can

boast the same kind of experience. You guys should all move to

Canada;-)

[simon_wong]

A bit like the difference between Goods and Services. You can buy a

bottle of wine in a bottle shop for one price and note that the same

bottle in a restaurant is considerably higher. Here you are not only

buying the "goods" but also the "service" or experience of fine

dining.

 

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Best thing is we get to choose. No one is hiding the fact of lower

price and no support.

 

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ps just because a bottle of wine at a restaurant is high priced

doesn't mean the dining experience is going to match the price on the

menu.....

[joshroot]

Bob, you should stick in a plug for your store. Just in case any of

us actually live near/in western Canada.

[collin_orthner]

Bob Todrick has said it the best so I can't add a bunch to the

conversation. Bob and myself work for the same company and if you are

worried about warranty, we offer a "Lifetime Warranty" (read - as per

manufacturers warranty)on anything purchased new from us with

shipping paid one way for 5% of the bill (i.e. $1000.00 purchase =

insurance for $50.00).

[jay_.]

Wow! You mean, if you sell me a new R6.2 from your store, I could

pay something like another $80 and get the same terms as the Leica

warranty for as long as I own the camera?

[collin_orthner]

Jay,

Assuming a price of C$3240.00 for an R6.2 your Lifetime Warranty

would run you an extra C$162.00 for as long as you own this camera.

Of course there is some fine print that goes along with such a

warranty (e.g. basketball games(impact) and scuba diving(flooded) are

definately out along with "pro" usage) but it really is a straight

forward agreement which I would gladly e-mail to anyone interested

offline.

[firoze_lafeer]

I think you definitely need to look at what your local dealer can

offer. Not all are the same. I made the mistake of buying an M6 and a

50 'cron recently from our local dealer here in Rockville, MD. I took

the M6 in for a non-critical repair one month later and I was told no

less than three times by the salesperson that he could get the

problem fixed by Leica in two weeks. I found out today that the truth

is more like 6-8 weeks. Of course, if I had been told that in the

first place, I would have waited to get it fixed this winter when I

won't need the camera as much.

 

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The worst part is that the dealer won't offer me a Leica loaner. He

will offer me something else, but nothing as useful as what I already

own. Furthermore, I asked him to sell me another M6 at a discount to

make up for the inconvenience, and he refused to do that also. I

could, of course, buy a new M6 and return it under his 30-day

guarantee, but I'm not comfortable doing that.

 

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In short, he offered me nothing more than a promise to reprimand the

salesperson who took my repair order. This week I'm in the market for

a 35 'lux ASPH and I can't see any value at all in buying such a lens

from this dealer. I'm convinced I'm better off trying delta or

chatterton instead.

[jay_.]

Collin, it was very nice of you to offer to send everyone information

on your store, but wouldn't it be disrespecting Bob's viewpoint if

any of us were to buy from your store instead of our local dealers?