Problems w/Digital ICE on Nikon 5000

[semaphore tom]

For a large project, last week I acquired a Nikon Coolscan 5000 ED and Slide Feeder SF-210. I've got

about 40,000 slides to archive to DVD. In addition to Nikon Scan v4.0.2 (which came with the scanner),

I also own Hamrick's VueScan software. Now all I need to do is to be able to figure out how to get

things working properly.

 

When I scan with Nikon Scan, I get true color, but the Digital ICE does not work -- or more properly, it

works on the Preview, but not on the scan. When I scan with VueScan, the initial result is excellent

color, but its post-processing turns the result to a yellowish-green cast and washes it out, but the dust

removal works just great.

 

Obviously, I'm looking for a way to make one program or the other work properly. If I have a

preference, VueScan seems eminently more usable, as the interface for Nikon Scan is absolutely

Neanderthal!

 

VUESCAN: If there is a way to disable the post-processing (but still enable the dust removal), this

would be my choice of possible routes. I've tried any number of combinations of settings, but given the

number of settings, there must be many combinations that I have not tried.

 

NIKON SCAN: I've set Digital ICE to be "on" everywhere I can, but I'm not sure that I understand the

intricacies involved (and the manual is of little help). As I understand it, turning ICE on in the Prefs only

controls the Preview -- and it works properly there. I've checked the box in Tool Palette 1, and tried it

variously at "Normal" and "Fine" -- to no avail. Dust still shows on the scan, but not in the Preview. In

the "control panel" at the upper left of the window, Digital ICE shows with "Fine" or "Normal" as I would

expect, but sometimes with the triangular "Caution" icon. I don't know why this appears nor what I do

to make it go away. I've tried any number of "settings" -- saving them, loading them, whatever -- but

again, without any success. I have yet to see a full scan where the dust has been removed.

 

If it makes any difference, I'm running this on a Mac G5 dual 1.8 processors, 1.5gb of memory, running

MacOS X 10.4.7.

 

I figured there would be a learning curve with the equipment, but I had not anticipated so many

difficulties getting off the ground. I had hoped to do a lot of testing and sampling over the

Thanksgiving holiday, but it doesn't look like that's going to happen unless a white knight comes to my

rescue! 8-)

 

Any suggestions, experiences, thoughts or even commiseration appreciated!

 

TIA,

 

Semaphore Tom

[mendel_leisk]

Can't comment on NikonScan's ICE problem, I don't have a Nikon, except to say it's gotta be some setting. I'm sure that'll get resolved here.

 

As to the color cast in Vuescan, some ideas:

 

1. In the Input Tab, do you have media set to color slide? And even worse, do you have something other than Generic Color Slide set in the Color Tab. GCS is about the only slide profile that doesn't impart a severe cast. Better still, just set Image as your media type in the Input Tab.

 

2. If that isn't it, the solution to the color cast is likely in the Color Tab. If you've moved away from defaults, try White Balance and maybe .5 wp for starters.

 

3. To avoid passing your slides through the scanner over and over, initially just output Vuescan Raw File (assuming you have the Pro version). If you're happy with the cleaning settings, maybe output the raw file "at save". This way the cleaning will be incorporated and a 48 bit file is the output. For max flexibility tho, output the raw "at scan". Then you'll get a 64 bit file, the extra 16 bits for the infrared info. These files are a pain tho, you can't edit them.

 

Then scan-from-disk with the raw and try different settings. If you don't want to stick with this workflow, it's still good for the short term, to sort out your color balance.

 

BTW, what is your slide type?

 

Also, 40,000 slides, wow! I believe in scanning everything, but that is a *lot*.

[jonathan_walker]

You have to select the settings you want, then name them, and save the settings.

 

Then, and this is key, you have to select "set user settings" to make those the default.

[robert lee]

I've a 5000 as well, and my recollection is that what Jonathon mentioned is correct. I always scan with ICE on, so this is one of those set once and forget how to do it again kind of thing. Post back if it doesn't work.

 

"I've got about 40,000 slides to archive to DVD."

 

Holy Cow, Batman! Have you worked the numbers? You really mean 4 thousand slides right?

 

The CS5000 is the fastest desktop scanner available, but you'll be lucky to do one slide per 4 minutes. This project will take 4 months scanning 24 by 7. Maybe someone here on P.N can suggest an outsource solution.

[semaphore tom]

Mendel, Jonathan and Robert -- thanks for your responses, especially at this late hour.

 

Since Nikon Scan was still live with the scanner, I tried what you suggested, Jonathan --

but no go. First, I cleared all User settings, then set the default settings, then set Digital

Ice to normal, and finally saved the user settings and applied them. After scanning, there

were still dust spots. It seems to me that if VueScan can get rid of them, it's not the

scanner misbehaving -- it's me not being able to figure out how to configure the program.

 

So then I killed Nikon Scan and launched VueScan. I found the slide that had produced the

most garish results to use in another test. Then I set the Default Options, hit the Advanced

button and then hit "More" to see all the options. I had been scanning with Color Slide,

Kodachrome (assuming that since it made the most sense), but this time, as Mendel

recommended, I set it to GCS. I then made minor changes to the Crop, Output and Prefs

pages before scanning. I did NOT touch the Color page, but I did set "Heavy" cleaning on

the Filter page. Then I scanned the problematic slide.

 

Since I was doing it from the defaults, it saved as a JPEG. What caught me by surprise was

the time it took for the post-processing -- with a TIFF, it was complete in a few seconds,

but with the JPEG, it takes about 20 or 30 seconds. The picture "snaps" a bit when it

completes and it is redrawn -- but the results are NOT the garish image I was seeing

before. It did change color slightly, and is clearly a bit more "washed out," but the color is

still acceptable when comparing to the original image. I still think that the image before

post-processing is closer in color, but I wonder how much is subjectively induced by

staring at that image, waiting for it to redraw. Not sure about that.

 

I'm going to continue to run further scans to test the results, both with well-exposed

images and problem ones. It would appear that I should be able to make sufficient

adjustments to achieve the results I'm looking for, but maybe I'm being optimistic. Thanks

to your help, I'm certainly a lot closer than I was earlier today.

 

And yes, the number is 40K. They nearly fill a closet, and I was expecting to take a year or

so of fairly continuous scanning to complete the project (and that doesn't include about

4,000 of my father's slides in another closet, which will also get scanned). If this were a

business concern, outsourcing would certainly be a consideration. Since this is a family

project, the cost of outsourcing would eliminate that option. Further, the collection is from

a variety of sources -- meaning a variety of films, processing, mounts, conditions, etc. --

not an ideal project to outsource.

 

At 65mb per image, that should be about 65 images per DVD. Dunno how many DVDs that

would be (and I'm not interested in counting right now!) -- but calculations don't make

sense, because these will be organized logically, and not all DVDs will reach capacity.

 

Thanks again for your help. I'll probably be back before too long, hopefully with some

positive results but probably with further questions! 8-)

 

Tom

[curt wiler]

You implied the slides may be Kodachrome - if true, this may be the problem. ICE should not be used with Kodachrome - this is true for any scanner.

[scott_brim]

Les Sariles' advice on working the settings will probably get you going for using ICE on batch scans. In my own experience with the CS 5000, ICE does work with Kodachrome, but not consistently. I get decent results three times out of four---if I choose to use ICE instead of manual dust removal, which is a conscious choice I make for every slide I scan since ICE can affect the sharpness of the scan.

 

If the slide is too dirty or too scratched, ICE can't take care of everything, and the remainder of the cleanup has to be done manually. If one is truly after 40,000 slides, then your choices have to balance quality against quantity. I think you will also find with using ICE for Kodachrome is that while many slides turn out well, other similar ones don't, and for no apparent reason.

[mendel_leisk]

"You implied the slides may be Kodachrome - if true, this may be the problem. ICE should not be used with Kodachrome - this is true for any scanner."

 

I have no ICE related problems scanning Kodachrome with the Scan Elite 5400 (first gen). Also, Nikon states the 9000's ICE is "more" compatible.

[roger_smith4]

With Vuescan, set media type to image and on the color tab color balance to none to get rid of most of the "post-processing." It will still convert from gamma 1.0 to gamma 2.2, but I think that's a helpful step.

 

Still, Kodachrome might not deliver consistent results even with the same settings as I've heard it varied considerably over the years.

 

Good luck and consider scaling back your project and scanning only the best slides and taking the time to scan them well.

[Stock-Photos]

Some tips for Nikonscan and SF-210 feedeer:

 

These tips are for Tom and his large project. I'm not trying to imply these procedures and setting are best for every Nikon 5000 user.

 

After changing settings in NikonScan, always select "settings" and then select "set user settings". This assures changes are retained.

 

When scanning Kodachrome, ALWAYS make sure the film type is set to Kodachrome, ESPECIALLY if your using the dust and scratch removal feature of Ice. Otherwise Ice will obliterate detail and cause a halo effect. I keep Ice set to "normal", never "fine". Ice "dust and scratch" uses a "lower power" when the film type is set to Kodachrome.

 

Scan Kodachrome film separate from other film types to avoid constant changing of setting.

 

When your SF-210 hangs up on a slide your, preview and scan buttons gray-out and become unusable. The eject button does not gray-out. Use eject to cycle the feeder. Once you clear the feeder you only need to close the "preview" window frame to re-activate it. No need to close Nikonscan altogether.

 

While feeding into the SF-210, cardboard mounted slides often hang-up, grabbing the slide behind it by the film window.

 

Cut a 3/8" wood dowel to 2" length, smooth off the ends and position it as shown in the photo below. This can allow the leading edge of slides to fan out away from each other, preventing hang ups. Having the dowel in just the right spot makes all the difference.When the last slide runs through, the dowel rolls over the puller. Of course this proceedure is not needed for plastic mounts.

 

Some film type show more grain than others. Fuji often shows heavy grain at 4000 ppi, so I always use GEM there. The scan resolution will have an impact on grain visibility. Certain resolutions actually amplify grain, in the same way looking through 2 screens at once shows an interference pattern.

 

Having GEM turned on can double the scan times. You need to be aware of this with 40,000 slides. Use GEM only when needed.

 

Take advantage of the filename prefixes in NikonScan to help group the scans.

 

Use plenty of leading zeros in file numbering so they sort correctly by filename. Filenames might start out something like g00100001.tif. for example. There is a slider to set how many leading zeros are used. I use the browser in PSP 8 to monitor progress.<div></div>

[Stock-Photos]

BTW, there's an icon on the NikonScan software,(it's supposed to look like the front of the scanner) Use it for re-opening the preview window, if it had to be closed.

 

Never shut off the scanner or pull the feeder out while the LED is blinking. If you do, using the eject (software button) may help reset things.

 

Keep the SF-210 dust cover closed when you can.

[semaphore tom]

Les wrote "Tom, I know that Nikon Scan leaves much to be desired so I created a reference

Creating-Saving-Applying Settings for CS5000 that may help. Ordered 1 through 13. Steps

1-5 is for creating and saving settings and steps 6-13 is for retrieving and applying the

previously saved settings. In Step 3, enable all the settings you would want to save and

apply upon recall such as ICE, 8 or 16bit, etc."

 

Les, I grabbed those images and dumped them into a PDF so I could easily view it while

trying it. Unfortunately, I cannot get past the very first screen. I tried resetting to the

default settings, but it does not give me any indication of how to show the thumbnails. I

know I saw them at one point, but now they are gone. It seems there was a button there,

but I can no longer see the button. Now what?

 

Roger said "With Vuescan, set media type to image and on the color tab color balance to

none to get rid of most of the "post-processing." It will still convert from gamma 1.0 to

gamma 2.2, but I think that's a helpful step."

 

Roger, I tried that as well -- but the results were unacceptably dark. Even too dark to

evaluate the colors. Taking a suggestion from Mendel, I'm going back to White Balance and

setting the white point to .5. I scanned one slide and it seemed to be going in the right

direction. I have a set of a dozen slides (varying from well-exposed to terrible) that I"m

using for testing, and I've got them in the hopper as I'm typing this. Maybe they'll be

finished before I'm finished with this reply.

 

Les wrote: "ICE on a Coolscan 5000 works just fine on Kodachrome. There are two modes

of it - NORMAL and FINE. The former does not visually affect the results of the scans while

the latter does. Since ICE in Fine mode tends to soften the image ever so slightly, it can be

used as a mild form of grain reduction while removing dust and scratch more aggressively

without the added processing time used by grain reduction programs or plugins."

 

Les, thanks for explaining this. I had mistakenly assumed that Normal meant for everyday

use and that Fine was a setting to be used for only "light" cleanup. The manual was

absolutely no help in distinguishing the intent!

 

Jim wrote "When scanning Kodachrome, ALWAYS make sure the film type is set to

Kodachrome, ESPECIALLY if your using the dust and scratch removal feature of Ice.

Otherwise Ice will obliterate detail and cause a halo effect. I keep Ice set to "normal", never

"fine". Ice "dust and scratch" uses a "lower power" when the film type is set to

Kodachrome. Scan Kodachrome film separate from other film types to avoid constant

changing of setting."

 

Jim, thanks for the info. These are a conglomeration of slides, but about 85% of them are

Kodachrome of one vintage or another. As I move through each box of them, I will start by

separating the non-Kodachromes so I can scan them differently.

 

Then Jim added "When your SF-210 hangs up on a slide your, preview and scan buttons

gray-out and become unusable. The eject button does not gray-out. Use eject to cycle the

feeder. Once you clear the feeder you only need to close the "preview" window frame to

re-activate it. No need to close Nikonscan altogether."

 

Jim, I've seen the Preview and Scan buttons become disabled, but I had not noticed the

Eject button. I'd just been quitting and relaunching. Thanks for the info.

 

Then Jim added the eye-popper "While feeding into the SF-210, cardboard mounted slides

often hang-up, grabbing the slide behind it by the film window."

 

YES! Thank you, Jim, for opening my eyes. I had found a burr on the underside of the lip

overhanging the return stack. A little adroit work with a flat screwdriver blade had taken

care of that. Before that, about every third or fourth slide would hang up; after that it hung

on about every twenty slides or so -- and I couldn't see or feel any burrs there. It makes

sense that if the second slide in the stack is a bit concave toward the first slide, they would

hang up exactly that way!

 

Then Jim added "Cut a 3/8" wood dowel to 2" length, smooth off the ends and position it

as shown in the photo below. This can allow the leading edge of slides to fan out away

from each other, preventing hang ups. Having the dowel in just the right spot makes all

the difference.When the last slide runs through, the dowel rolls over the puller. Of course

this proceedure is not needed for plastic mounts."

 

Clever! I didn't have a 3/8" dowel, and concluded that a 1/4" dowel would not be

sufficient, so I'm currently trying a 1/2" dowel. If that doesn't seem to do the trick, I'll

chase down some 3/8" stock. Thanks for a great tip!

 

 

Thanks to all of you for your suggestions. I'm still leaning toward using VueScan because I

like the workflow better, but I have not eliminated Nikon Scan. I'm after results, and I'll use

whichever one I can use to produce the closest fidelity to the original slides. And yes, I'm

being realistic -- I have a target completion date of Christmas 2007. Hopefully, it will be

done before then, but I'm not planning on it.

 

Sorry -- the next batch of slides is not yet done. I'll probably want to try a few more tests

anyway!

 

Thanks again for all your help,

 

Tom

[mendel_leisk]

"I have a target completion date of Christmas 2007"

 

Ouch!

 

Anyway, I think you'll make out. Hopefully the scanner will hold out. I would look on Vuescan processing as very good for assembly line color balance and gamma adjustment. Keep the raws, you can alway try different Vuescan settings latter, or work with them directly in Photoshop.

 

I used to use a lot lower wp in Vuescan, and neutral white balance. But lately I've come around to this raised white point and White balance as a quick-and-dirty leveller, for my various (slide) film types. Sometimes it backfires. And occasionally I'll adjust the brightness or curve low (high) settings as well. I just log anything that's not my defaults.

[robert lee]

"I have a target completion date of Christmas 2007"

 

The resale value on the 5000 is pretty good. You might consider picking up another one or two 5000's and run them in parallel.

 

If you try this, using simultaneous scanners might be a problem for the software. Try VMware to virtualize each instance.

[scott_brim]

IMHO, 40,000 slides is still an awful lot of slides to get through in only a year.

 

In the late 1960s, when I first started taking pictures seriously---as opposed to taking lots of family & friends types of photos---I read an article in Modern Photography about Jay Maisel. His advice was to throw away any frame that didn't hit the mark as something definitely worth keeping.

 

This is what I did over a period of thirty-five years, throwing out roughly two-thirds of the slides that came back from the processor, with the result that my slide scanning task is much reduced in size and scope over what it might otherwise have been, allowing me to spend more time on those images worth spending time on.

 

I have a similar philosophy with my digital camera. I only download the images I want to keep, about one-third of the total frames shot, and the rest get tossed into the bit bucket. In comparison with film, it's obviously one heck of a lot cheaper to shoot and discard lots of frames in order to produce the one that's perfect.

 

Off topic, after playing with the demo version of Silverfast Ai for the last several weeks, I've decided to get a copy. It's multipass scanning feature actually does reduce noise, as opposed to NikonScan, and I'm able to pull more detail out of the shadows without resorting to the use of excessive Analogue Gain that results in greater problems with bleedover/flaring.

[semaphore tom]

Robert wrote "The resale value on the 5000 is pretty good. You might consider picking up

another one or two 5000's and run them in parallel. If you try this, using simultaneous

scanners might be a problem for the software. Try VMware to virtualize each instance."

 

Not a bad thought, Robert, but at $1500 a crack, it's more than I want to spend at this

point. It would be easy to implement, however, as I have access to multiple computers to

throw at the problem.

 

Scott wrote "IMHO, 40,000 slides is still an awful lot of slides to get through in only a

year."

 

That may well be, but if it takes longer, it takes longer. This is not a job for someone else;

it's a job for ME.

 

Scott also wrote "In the late 1960s, when I first started taking pictures seriously---as

opposed to taking lots of family & friends types of photos---I read an article in Modern

Photography about Jay Maisel. His advice was to throw away any frame that didn't hit the

mark as something definitely worth keeping."

 

I think I read the same article, and I've tried to follow that same philosophy. However,

these photographs do not fit that paradigm. Not that they are anything particularly

valuable, but they are a historical record of a sort -- definitely NOT personal photos,

portraits nor artsy-type photos.

 

These are different in that there is a market for them. My intent is to archive them to DVD,

donate copies of appropriate DVDs to historical groups who have a use for them (keeping

a full set for myself), and then selling the individual slides for a few dollars each.

 

Scott also wrote "I have a similar philosophy with my digital camera. I only download the

images I want to keep, about one-third of the total frames shot, and the rest get tossed

into the bit bucket. In comparison with film, it's obviously one heck of a lot cheaper to

shoot and discard lots of frames in order to produce the one that's perfect."

 

While I understand (and agree with) what you are saying, I don't believe it really applies to

what I am trying to do. This will be a long-term project, and I knew that going in (I

debated it for about six months before jumping in). There's no rush, assuming I live long

enough to complete it.

 

Unfortunately, I've been unable to make any progress the past couple of days, as I've been

hit by some kind of bug. I'm hoping to find more time to get back to it this coming week.

I'm encouraged by what I have found with VueScan and adjusting the White Point value. It

still doesn't produce an acceptable copy of the original, but it's getting closer.

 

Thanks to all of you for your help -- I'm still hanging in there and still working on it!

 

Tom

[cameron_beger]

I am currently about 90% of the way through a 5000 slide scanning project of my families life history.

 

This is what I have gathered so far:

Nikon 4000

Nikon Scan 4.0 with latest update

Windows XP Pro SP2 (note using XP HOME nikon scan was unuseable as it would crash every 10 minutes). Switching to XP PRO seemed to solve the problem. I also reinstalled XP home NO SERVICE pack no other software just the XPHOME install and it was more stable but not as stable as XP PRO.

 

Scan Settings:

W: 5782

H: 3946

AnalogGain: Neutral

Digital ROC: Modified (using full capability)

Digital GEM: Modified (using full capability)

Digital ICE: Fine

MultiSample: 4x

Bit Depth: 8

Format: JPG

 

Average scan time and pretty consitent is 6 minutes per slide (yes 24,000+ mintues of scanning so far)

 

System:

Windows XP Pro SP2

AMD X2 3800+ (dual core)

3GB Single Channel DDR400 RAM

1.2 TB yes TB raid 0 drive for storing files

128MB dual head video monitor supporting 2 monitors.

 

I am very interested in this project as I myself and looking at taking on a bigger project and have been trying to figure out how to run muliple scanners on 1 computer.

 

Things I am going to try next to cut down on the scan time without changing nikon settings.

 

The Nikon scannning software appears to only use 1 CPU in a 2 CPU computer, wanted to try install a faster single core CPU (1 CPU not two for those of you not into the lingo). As I notice the CPU is 100% during scanning.

 

VMWare 5.5 the latest version from what I gather does not support firewire. However it does support USB in the guest OS and the nikon 5000 does support USB. So as far as I can gather that you can use VMWare to use multiple scanners in a one to one ratio scanner to vmware guest OS.

 

The SF-210 slide feeder I'm using does jam when the sliding arm catches on the second slide. To get around this I filed down plastic pusher plat so that the edge where the slides are fed from is not a square edge and is more slant edge so it doesn't catch the second slide. Others have put a new spring that is not as tight in the feeder or adde spacers to it.. these tips can be found on the web.

 

The other solution is find people willing to scan your slides, set the specs you want in nikon scan distribute the config settings to them, send them the slides and have them mail you a DVD full of slides. I get about 210-250 slides per DVD 23 DVD so far for me.

 

You may need to lower the quality, gem, roc and sample to get a reasonable amount of time for the scan or 40,000 slide is going to take you a fair part of your life.

 

At 25MB per file you will need 1000GBs that about 1 TB of drive space to hold all your scanning.

 

Please send me a message so that I can keep up with your project I'm very interest to see how you combat this challenge.