Nikon/Leica/Sekonic meters don't match

[jacob1]

I set up a test.My Nikon F5 next to my M6 ttl.Same film(sensia 100),same lens type(35mm f2),same exposure details(125/f5.6),taken at exactly the same time,using a sekonic 508 ambient reading.I also took a few frames using the built in meters.

 

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So why then has the F5 produced perfectly exposed slides and the M6 slides are all over the place?

 

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I also tried the same test with SB28 nikon & SF20 Leica flash.I set both cameras to 30th/5.6.Nikon was perfect,Leica was overexposed in the flash and underexposed in the ambient.

 

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why,why,WHYYYYYYYY???????

 

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I am greatful for any help.

[virgil]

Was EVERYTHING on the cameras and lenses set to manual?

[jacob1]

Yes Virgil,I everything.I even made a double mount for the cameras to

sit next to each other on the tripod and taped the cable-releases

together so they would trip the shutters at the same time.

[nesrani]

"So why then has the F5 produced perfectly exposed slides and the M6

slides are all over the place?"

 

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I'm a fan of the M6 meter myself, but I would never claim that it is

anywhere near as clever as the F5 or F100.

[virgil]

I don't know in that case Jacob?

 

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This is a job for the more technically minded members of the

forum......

[virgil]

But Rob,everything was set to manual,so the results from both cameras

should be consistant?

[dlegaspi]

i assume that the SB-28 and SF-20 are also set to manual (i.e., not

TTL)...if not then that's the cause of the difference in exposure...

[bob haight]

Sounds like your not questioning the exposure as much as shutter

speed? Do you think your M's shutter may be off. That would account

for the "M6 slides are all over the place" 125/f5.6 should be the

same on both cameras in terms of exposure in your test.

[jackflesher]

I agree with Bob above. If your exposures were all over the place,

and you used 1/125th @ f5.6 for everything, then clearly your shutter

is not behaving as it should. You can get errors of +/- 1/3 stop or

so at the higher speeds of 1/500th and 1/1000th, but it should be

very consistent at 1/125th. I regularly shoot transparency film in my

M6's and have NO problems -- they turn out as good as my F5 (that is,

as long as I do my job properly!)

 

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:-),

[jay_.]

Agreed. At 1/125 the M shutter is at least consistent if not

accurate. At most your shots should have been over- or under-exposed

with the Leica but not "all over the place". Time for a shutter

check.

[richard_ilomaki3]

Jacob:

 

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There is a unique set of exposure parameters for each different

camera, lens, film development and even light source combo. To be

rigorous, one needs to do tests on each one separately do determine

these. Even 2 lenses from the same manufacrurer with consequtive

serial Nos can be different, same as 2 amplifiers, cars etc. All Big

Macs taste the same, but Steak Diane in 2 different French

restaurants tastes different. All E&J G**** wine tastes the same but

a Margaux is differnet from a Pomerol.

 

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Even tho' current mass production techniques are very good, Leicas

are not really MassProd machines. It take some time to learn the

machine, as it can not really be taken out of the box and used

straightaway as a Nikon or Toyota can.

 

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The metering system on the Nikon is a complex matrix that integrates

readings from many sections of the visual field of view, then the

computer calculates an exposure based on algorithms set up by a

committee of engineers at Nikon. It can even tell what where the sky

is compared to trees when the camera is held horizontally, and can

compensate for that.

 

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The Leica reads what falls on one grey spot on the shutter curtain

and tells you that it meets the 18% grey criterion; you must

interpret that, even with the TTL. You (we) are expected to do the

same as the Nikon algorithm does, based on tens of thousands of

images and the committee, all in about the same time in your head

without being conscious of it, sort of the way a hawk sees a rat and

knows just precisely how fast to fly and in what direction to grab it

on the run, without algorithims and committess of guys in white coats.

 

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Ask Micheal Schumacher how long it takes to learn how to drive an F1

Ferrarri after learning on a Fiat. As long as I am still waxing

philosophic, why does every Stradivarious violin sound different?

 

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Cheers

[lacey_smith6]

I've also not seen what the subject was - -background, etc. -- better

for matrix metering?, forgreound/background distance changes, metering

area versus main exposure area (the Lecia will meter the central are...

 

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I've manually metered Leica for some time, and per cent "bad"

epxosures are very low.

[sheridan]

Hello Jacob. In relation to your flash overexposure problem with the

M6 ttl and SF20 flash you are not alone. Fast forward to Jack

Flesher's newer thread "Vivid Light online magizine M6 article"

thread. In the article the author experiences similar problems and

comments on adjustments required. Perhaps Lutz's SF20 Leica flash

diffuser, a new accesory for this flash, will address your problem.

I'm not sure how to contact the designer of this accessory. Other

Leica users will be able to help here. Regards.

[stefan www.randlkofer.co]

many of you answerers didn't read the thread properly. there was no

matrix metering involved. i guess the problem lies in the difference

between electronic and mechanic shutters. i would try to shoot a

whole film with the m6, keeping the aperture the same and changing

through many speeds. every fifth exposure should be at the metered

value. then shoot another film with increasing speeds and decreasing

aperture, keeping the ev-value level.

this should tell you a lot about the accuracy of your shutter. get it

repaired or learn to live with it.

[andrew1]

Meters are not all calibrated the same. Further, metering

technique is very important, even (especialy?) with in-camera

meters. If, in your tests, you just set the cameras on manual,

and adjusted the apertures and shutter speed dials until the

cameras indicated proper exposure, you will certainly get

different results. Check the aperture settings and shutter speed

indicators and compare them, and you will see the difference.

 

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As has been pointed out, the Nikons have complex metering

systems, and the Leica has a simple "selective"meter. The

Nikon evaluates the scene and calculates exposure, the Leica's

in-camera meter just tells you what settings will make the central

23% or so reproduce at roughly middle grey, or mid tone.

 

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You may be seeing the Leica's shutter which is known to be less

accurate than the Nikon's. You may be seeing meters calibrated

slightly differently. You may be seeing the result of poor

metering technique. Or, much less likely, you may be seeing a

mechnical problem in one of your cameras. I seriously doubt

this, and would take a long look at your metering technique, even

if think you are just going by what the in-camera meters say.

Where are you pointing the lens? As you have no doubt noted,

this makes a big difference with the Leica, and with the Nikon,

depending upon which metering mode you have set.

 

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Hope this helps. I teach this stuff to highschool and college

kids, so feel free to flame me or e-mail with more questions as

you like.

[Rob F.]

Jacob: What drew said. Also, do you have a problem with the M6 when

used on its own? Or was the problem only apparent within the context

of your test? If so, it may have been an artifact of your testing

method. I get an occasional bum exposure with the M6, but it's

always my fault for ignoring what I know about the effect of the

subject luminence deviating from 18% reflectance.

[john_elder1]

Dear Jacob,

When I test and compare meters in my various cameras and hand held

meter I use a hand painted slate "grey card" about 2x3feet in size. I

set the lens on infinity to take the readings and fill the frame with

the "grey card" The variance between My M6, Nikon F3, Fe2, and Pentax

digital spotmeter have always been within 1/3 of a stop. So, I would

check your meter readings using this type of test. Then do a Zone 5

exposure with all cameras at several different shutter speed and

apeture combinations to cross check for shutter speed accuracy.

Develop the film together in the same tank.

The only variance that has suprised me is the slightly different

readings I get from different M lens,especially the 90 tele-elmarit

which passes more light to the film plane, about 1/2 stop.

[brooke_anderson]

Hi Jacob,

hmmm.... the F5 does have a color meter, and the SB-28 and F5 talk to

each other - even in manual mode. The Nikon will also take into

account the exact distance (if using a D-lens), I'm wondering if the

Nikon pair can make small 1/10-2/10th-3/10th adjustments in metering

even in full manual. Your flash is working with the F5 in TTL,

powerful combo. The Nikon's computer (along with color metering) has

a better balanced fill-flash program.

Also, have you calibrated your M6 against your sekonic?

[harry1]

YOU

 

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DIDN'T

 

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READ

 

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THE

 

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THREAD

 

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RETARDS

 

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Everything was in MANUAL

[michael_devoue]

No, You are the "retard".

 

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1)Did you use a grey card? your post doesn't specify. Even if you did,

you would have to make sure that you always measure and shoot from the

same angle relative to the grey card. Make sure that's all the meter

sees is grey.

 

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2)Diaphragm inaccuracy, shutter variance, yes, play a role and the

above won't matter if these come into play.

 

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3)Photography is not an exact science. (Absolutely perfect focus

either never happens or is impossible to achieve- thank circles of

confusion for that) If you want exact, you'll have to shoot digitally

using lenses that don't involve a physical medium such as glass and

operates in a vacuum. Good luck trying to focus, however.