Amateur Considering RZ 67 Pro II

[steven_mj]

I have been reading the various messages, questions, and answers on the forum

pertaining to the RZ, the recent sale of Mamiya, and whether one

should "invest" in an RZ at this point. I note that the contributions stopped

in May and thought I had better start a new one or no one would respond.

 

I, like other amateurs, have admired medium format equipment, but since we

cannot bill out the cost of the equipment, and since the costs were

staggering, never bought any MF equipment. Then early in this century digital

35mm equipment took off like a rocket. I attended in October 2002 a workshop

co-sponsored by Popular Photography magazine and Mamiya in New York City. I

was astonished to see them offer brand new equipment -- cameras, lenses,

backs, camera bags -- free of charge for our use during the workshop. It

rained much of the time, and we amateurs were walking around Central Park in

the rain with expensive new equipment while Mamiya personnel assisted us and

answered questions. Even Jim Zuckerman was there with his RZ67 giving

lectures on exposure and reviewing our images. Only a few of us bought

anything before we left, mainly due to the cost. I was pondering what Mamiya

was thinking to offer such expensive equipment to amateurs to use under these

conditions. I concluded then that they must be truly worried by the shift to

35mm digital by pros and had turned their future hopes for sales to the

amateur market.

 

I now see that the RZ67 that I have admired so long, but did not buy due to

price, has become affordable in excellent used condition, but the catch is

that the company may no longer be around to support the product. I have also

read on this forum a lot of complaints about batteries shorting and plastic

gears jamming. Does this happen that often? Is the RB more reliable than the

RZ for these reasons?

 

I would love to have a truly reliable RZ with a couple lenses that I could

include in my shoulder bag along with a digital 35mm SLR and a couple zooms

for travel photography. From what I see, if you leave off the AE viewfinder,

a single back on the RZ with a 50mm lens mounted could fit into one slot, and

a 180mm lens could fit into another slot. I have a Lowepro S&F AW shoulder

bag that I think could handle it based upon dimensions that I have seen on the

net.

 

What would you say to someone like me?

 

Thank you very much.

[stwrtertbsratbs5]

Yikes! An RZ, a couple of lenses, and a 35mm SLR in a shoulder bag? You won't walk very far with all of that weighing you down.

 

The RZ is a superb system. But most people don't consider it to be a travel camera. If that's what you need, look at the Bronica RF645 or a Mamiya 7 rangefinder.

 

As for service - independent techs should have no problem servicing an RZ. Plus they are really well built and will last for decades.

[marty_sanborn]

I would say you would want to get a backpack to carry all that around. I lugged a RB with 90mm lens plus my Nikon with 3 lenses and a tour book around Japan for two weeks in a Domke shoulder bag. Sure, it wasn't heavy in the morning, but it was pretty rough by midday and terrible by night. I'm not saying don't do it, I'm saying get real backpack with hip pads that's properly fitted. And, to be honest, there are some pretty good compact digital cameras out there that take up less space and come pretty close to DSLRs.

 

Regarding reliability, there's a couple things to consider. First, there has been no announcement that Mamiya will stop supporting the RZ. Second, there are plenty of repair shops out there should you run into trouble. Third, even as support dwindles, you'll still find big shops (say, KEH) will still be able to fix these for years after Mamiya stops support. Most importantly, as an amateur, you're not going to be running the RZ into the ground. They were designed with professional photographers in mind, and I doubt you'll be running that amount of film through it.

 

Of course, consider the differences in MF. Yes, you get the larger film area, but it will change your style of shooting. The RZ is more at home on a tripod than handheld (though I've done plenty with the RB handheld, it's just a beast to hold up). It's not a camera that responds quickly, and you need to have ready access to a pro store that stocks and develops MF film. None of these are impediments, you just need to know what you're getting into. That being said, I rarely use anything other than my RB and Mamiya 7 these days.

[nghi_hoang]

I say don't speculate on what will happen in the future. If you want a RZ67 ProII, then you ought to buy one, used or new depending on your budget, and use it to produce the images that you want. I'm a student with a budget, but I still am saving to buy more RZ equipment. I love the camera, which I use outside the studio mostly and carry in a Lowepro backpack. It's heavy and slower than my Nikon, but it is a joy to use. I just have a discussion with a friend the other days. We both agree that, percentage wise, I get more keepers from the RZ67 than the Nikon. I find all the speculation a waste of time and mental energy. Good luck with your decision, whatever it may be.

[pavelp]

Well, Mamiya thinks differently. Quirky behavior and quirky designs are their trademark.

 

Some people say that the earlier RZs had reliability issues but those are supposed to be fixed in RZ Pro II model. RB cameras are totally mechanical and you do not hear much complaints about their reliability. And heck, you can buy another used ProSD body for $100 if something goes wrong.

 

Now, are you sure you really need RZ? The RZ equipment is still priced kinda high for just hobbyists, while the RB equipment is now being handed out pretty much for free. You can use K/L lenses with RB and those are pretty much same as the RZ lenses (except for the built-in shutter). But C-lenses (which are dirty cheap now) are excellent performers as well. But with RB, there's no AE option (no link to the metering prism, the metering is uncoupled).

 

And I agree with others, don't carry this thing in your shoulder bag, get a back pack (or a good spine doctor). The camera with lens, WLF and back is close to 6 pounds (add another pound for the AE finder).

[sandeep_singh_brar]

As a hobbyist I've returned to to the RZ after first owning it in the early 1980's and find it one of the best engineered cameras out there. Never had a problem with it and find the battery typically lasts about 2 to 3 years. The electronically controlled shutter is also more accurate that the mechanical RB and the Z line of lenses are superb. I have a three lens outfit which fits nicely into a backpack and I take along a monopod most of the time and sometimes a tripod when needed. It's a great field camera, because of it's large mass it's easy to handhold at slow shutter speeds. Of all medium format cameras out there those owned by the largest number of people are the Hasselblad and the RZ so I don't think that service will be an issue down the road as there are a lot of service folks who have worked on RZ's. Given these dirt cheap prices I would pick up an extra body and some of your favourite lenses and just pack them away. I'm using the original RZ Pro I understand that the Pro II has more plastic gears, so maybe that's an issue, not sure?

[andre_noble4]

My feeling (As a 35mm, SLR 6x6, and 4x6 user) regarding the large Mamiya RZ for use outside the studio is this:

 

If you're willing to carry it around outside, set up your tripod, compose, etc - you might as well use and set up instead a 4x5 (or even a 5x7) camera.

[steven_mj]

I really appreciate your responses.

 

I guess that I should add that I mainly shoot outdoors with a tripod anyway, so the composing on a tripod part will not be new. I have always been a very careful and conscientious photographer. I mainly want better quality in wide angle shots where landscape detail is not clear with 35mm when enlarged. I read a book by Roger Hicks (Quality in Photography) that maintains that 35mm cannot be enlarged beyond a 4X6 without losing quality. I have shot DSLR and have scanned slides with a Nikon 4000 ED, but was always disappointed about the details. And shadows seem to block up. I actually have a Lowepro backpack, but never use it because the shoulder bag is so much quicker and convenient to use. As for the RB vs RZ, I am not familiar with the differences with the lenses. I do not know what the RB shutters are like; are the shutters not inside the lens? And pertaining to large format (4X5 or 5X7) I mainly have avoided that since I do not think I would like working with sheet film. There is a lot I do not know in this whole area, so if I have something wrong here, please let me know.

 

Thanks again.

[runkel]

If your interest is mostly wide angles, be aware that rangefinder and view camera wides do not require the major design compromise that SLR wides do. SLR wides must be of retrofocus design so that the rear element does not obstruct the reflex mirror. Rangefinder and view camera designs can be closer to a "true" wide-angle design and tend to give superior results. Of course, good SLR wides give excellent results too.

 

You might want to look at something like the Fuji GSW690. If you can live with a single, fixed 28mm-equivalent lens, you will get spectacular 6x9 negatives from a camera that will be much more enjoyable to carry around on your travels than the beast you are considering.

[robert_reiss]

I am an amateur too. I bought an RZ67 Pro II with 100-200mm lens, AE finder, and back from an auction site for about $1800 from a portratit photographer who went digital about 2 years ago. I wanted to be able to do high quality portraits that could be enlarged to poster size if desired.

 

Although the camera has been underutlized, I have not regretted the decision. I have added 65mm and 110mm lenses. I now mostly use the chimney finder and a light meter (sekonic L-358). The camera is a little awkward for handheld use, but I bought an L grip. The viewfinder is very fun to use because it is so bright and clear. I'd like to get the 140mm macro or 180mm lens next.

 

I don't think I'd recommend a large format camera as a substitute. I own a calumet 4x5 and it is much slower to use than the RZ67. 120 film is easier to store and send for processing. I really enjoy the sharpness and overall quality of the prints and slides I have seen. I use an epson 2450 to scan them.

 

I haven't tried any long hikes with the RZ67 but I took one for an easy 1.5 mile hike recently and it really wasn't too bad.

 

If weight is an issue, I'd consider the bronica sqa/sqai or a mamiya tlr.

 

The overall experience of using the camera is great. I don't think you will regret it. Even though fewer pros might be using the camera now, I feel like a pro when I'm using the camera and I like the response I get from my portrait subjects when they see the camera.

[spanky]

I purchased a 2nd hand ProII system a couple years ago and have considered it one of my best purchases. Never had a problem except for regular cleaning and an inexpensive adjustment to the "flange back" which is as far as I can tell is the lens mount at the front of the bellows. My repair guy is Mamiya trained so I trust him. He even discovered my 180mm lense was firing fine even after another local shop tried to get my to pay for a shutter adjustment. He still has parts for many discontinued Mamiya cameras. He said not to worry about parts or repairs becoming scarce. Have a look at my gallery. All the shots there were taken with my ProII. All were hand held (many using 50iso film no less) except for "Single Man With his Cat" which was on a tripod. When out in the streets I carry three lenses (65mm, 110mm, 180mm) one on the body, two in my LowPro bag along with cable release, extra back ect.

After a few trips hand holding these cameras and carying the bag on your shoulder it becomes a non issue. So by all means pick yourself up a system, the quality is outstanding and it's really a fun camera to use. I suggest purchasing through an outfit like KEH (where I bought most of my stuff) which has excellent customer service.

[akajohndoe]

Well, I've been hiking all over the American Southwest, the Rockies, and on Northward for almost two months now with an RZ Pro II with a WLF, 4 lenses, and a Canon DSLR with 5 L-lenses, and a Bogen 3021 tripod in a Tamrac 787 backpack and having a grand time!

 

The images from the RZ are tremendous. I had a dozen rolls of Velvia 100 processed awhile back in Boulder. Nothing quite like seeing transparencies that are big and sharp enough to view without a light table or projector!

 

But, of course, a 787 is not exactly a shoulder bag, either...

[pavelp]

Regarding the RB/RZ difference: RB has no battery whatsoever, so the shutter must be retarted by a mechanical clockwork which is built-in inside each lens. RZ has the retarding electronics inside the body and each lens has just the blades that are driven from the camera (not by a mechanism inside the lens).

 

Regarding the optical formulas and coatings, RB has three distinct lines: plain, C and K/L. The plain line is single coated glass. The C-line is multicoated glass but I believe the optical formulas are same. THe K/L line is rumoured to be the same optical formulas as Z lenses for the RZ cameras (Mamiya's top notch). K/L lenses still have the mechanical shutter.

 

You can use RB lenses on RZ but not the other way (for obvious reason). If you use RB lenses on RZ, you will use the mechanical shutters inside the lens, not the electronic shutter in the camera. Nothing's wrong with mechanical shutters, but the precision of electronic shtters is wonderful.

[steven_mj]

Once again, thanks to all for your contributions.

 

MARC: Where is your gallery site? I would like to see your images.

 

I truly welcome any others who would like to contribute.

[wayne_crider4]

Your lucky having been able to handle the camera so if like it you may as well buy one. I'd say buy the best and cheapest camera you can and expect to keep it, as prices are plumeting and your likely never going to get your money out of it if you change your mind down the line.

 

I own a RB myself and to me it's not a travel camera. Maybe for a big person who can handle alot of weight, but who the hell wants to carry that much including a 35mm system especially if going on long city or wilderness hikes? Well, myabe one or two people; But definelty not the majority. My own RB is now dedicated to my camera bag and hasn't been out for a year. My 35mm system is better at macro, flowers, and my 4x5 Graphic better at landscapes. With film holders and two lenses my 4x5 is lighter then a 2 lens/2 back + prism RB, and it gives me much more film real estate. If I want to go lighter I can take my 501cm and use a lighter tripod.

 

Mf sales have been in the dumps except for people buying used equipment since so many have always wanted a MF camera but have never been able to afford one till now. But when things get cheap it's not necessairly true that you should go out and buy it. I personally am up in the air if it's even smart to invest in a mf system regardless of what the pricing is now days. I say If your really going to use it week in and week out as a pro or as a part timer looking to sell photographs then yea you'll get your money worth out of owning it, but if it's going to be used only say once in a awhile on the occasional weekend, I'd say save your money and invest in something else.

[spanky]

Hi Steven. Just click on my name. It will take you to a page that will have my gallery link.

[steven_mj]

Once again, I have found all your comments very helpful. Thanks.

 

I am reminded, as I look back over your comments, that one of the things that I found most attractive about the RZ was the bright, clear viewfinder. Even with the WL finder removed and looking down on the focusing screen, it was a joy to look at. Having that to use for focusing instead of looking through a tiny hole and relying on autofocus, as with a 35mm viewfinder, seemed like a great improvement.

 

Also, I have considered a rangefinder as a lighter alternative. Back in 2002, on the workshop with Mamiya, I tried the model 7 II, but focusing in low light on a rainy day using the overlapping images in the rangefinder was no easy task. Also, I just checked an online auction service, and a Fuji GSW690III was just bid up to the price of $1,225. And that is a single fixed lens camera. So, some of the appeal of the RZ is that they are going for a lower price with more versatility. I admit that if I could get a great 690 rangefinder for the price that an RZ body/back/lens is going for I might be tempted, but Mamiya Model 7s also bid up to a very high price. Looks like rangefinder cameras are in more demand than the SLRs like the RZ.