rayn Posted March 13, 2002 Share Posted March 13, 2002 I am not asking this question to start a flame war. I'm asking because I will be buying my first Leica M soon, and want to get an idea of the things that might bug me after I get it (things like viewfinder flare, etc). I've read through this website, examined photos and specs, and played with an M6 in a store. But it seems like the little things you don't like about a camera don't become apparent until it is used in the field. <p> So please tell me, do you have any pet-peeves about your Leica M system? What would you change or fix if you could? I'll be getting a black Leica M7 0.72 with a 35/2 Aspheric Lens. My intention is to use it for unobtrusive hand held low light stuff, without flash. I use larger formats for landscapes and the like (tripod work). <p> Any other advice for a newbie Leica user is welcome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richardvanle Posted March 13, 2002 Share Posted March 13, 2002 You already know what you're going to buy. Buy it and ignore all the griping and belly-aching on this site. It will corrupt you and pollute your mind. Take your camera and use it and then you'll be able to answer this question yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leonid Posted March 13, 2002 Share Posted March 13, 2002 Wouldn't it make sense to simply rent the camera first , that way you will know first hand . If anything , getting used to film loading or framing should be your major problem ( at first ). Some people adapt quickly , while others are never able to . It all depends on you really . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sl Posted March 13, 2002 Share Posted March 13, 2002 Ray. Please consider that this list, just like most lists, are dominated by a vocal minority and sometimes they give good advice. I have six Leica Ms and have none of the complaints that you here about here. Remember that there is NO nirvana with ANY camera including the M6. Learn to use it for its strengths and its weaknesses will seem to be very minor. Just enjoy the wonderful pictures it takes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giles_poilu Posted March 13, 2002 Share Posted March 13, 2002 Ray, have you looked in the archives - there was a similar thread to this quite some time ago that had a lot of interesting info. but I can't find it! <p> Along with the "which 35mm lens is the best" this is in the top five FAQ's - if you are coming from a typical SLR background the M is a real different kettle of fish and as said above rather than jumping in at the deep end it may be a good idea to trial before you buy. <p> Personally speaking the M7 is not for me but I do believe it is a fantastic camera that manages to blend just enough modern (sort of)features in the traditional M body without comprimising it's near perfect handling, construction and feel. <p> But to return to your original question - simply remaking the M4 would create a 99.99% perfect Leica for me (However, this would not make financial sense and I'm in the minority here). <p> We all want to see Leica survive and I believe the M7 will strengthen their position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james_.1 Posted March 13, 2002 Share Posted March 13, 2002 Hrmn, maybe faster and slower shutter speeds, that's it. Maybe 4 sec. and up to 1/2000? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roger_michel Posted March 13, 2002 Share Posted March 13, 2002 ideal m -- that's easy!! same dimensions and specs as the CLE (ok, throw in AE lock while were dreamin'). same build quality as the m7. higher mag viewfinder. oh -- and stick a 35mm asph 'cron on front -- but with a COLLASPIBLE shade for further compactness. then you'd have a world beater. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dzeanah Posted March 13, 2002 Share Posted March 13, 2002 Leica people are weird. <p> Check out the LUG and you'lll see all kinds of complaints about the smallest things -- I remember a thread a couple of years back by a guy who was so obsessed with the distracting nature of the "red dot" that he went to the effort to fill it in with black paint, while still leaving the logo part visible in silver. Weird. <p> Everyone has a few things they'd like to see work a little differently. I'd like to have a case for the camera that wouldn't slow down film reloads. I'd like a tripod screw that wasn't so far off to the side. I wish they weren't so damn expensive. I wish there weren't so many options for lenses so I'd know what to buy in each focal length (go to Stephen Gandy's web site and read up on all the different versions of the 50 Summicron that have been produced). I wish I didn't feel compelled to apply electrical tape to a nearly new camera in order to protect some of its value should I decide to sell it. (see? Weird). I wish there was a perfect camera bag. <p> Overall, in my opinion, there's no better 35mm camera if you're the kind of guy who shoots like me. I don't do macro, I don't do wildlife, I'm not big into polarizers and other filters, I like to exercise my mind while I exercise my shutter, I like to travel with portable equipment, I occasionally beat the hell out of my gear when I'm in a hurry and want a camera that can take the punishment. If I'm going to go to the effort to carry and set up a tripod then I'm going to expose a larger piece of film than 35mm. <p> Shoot with it and enjoy it. Nothing's perfect. But the M-series is as close as we're likely to see in 35mm cameras. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vic_. Posted March 13, 2002 Share Posted March 13, 2002 If you look at other major camera brands (Nikon being my refernce point), they have segmented their target customers (they can afford to sinec they have a huge volume), and consequently offer: fully manual cameras through fully automatic, from cheap to high end professional quality. Similarly with their lenses. Some of the cheap stuff is pure crap, but there is a market for such stuff, and the margins are probably higher on junky cameras (probably outsourced to Malaysia). <p> With Leica the critics expect too much from ONE camera. One camera's features cannot please everyone. In my view the M6 and the M7 are completely different cameras and cater to users who have completely diffrent philosophies. You can't fit everyone into a Size 4 Chanel suit. <p> Personally, I would not buy the M7 because I like the fully manual capability of the M6. The thing with the M7 is that my wife could use the camera (which is why I bought a Nikon FE years ago, instead of the FM). The M6 is solely my camera, a pity. My wife now uses a Canon digital S110. <p> I think the M7 expands Leica's market reach, and is a breakthrough development for the brand. However, diehard Leica luddites such as myself would not go for it as a *primary* camera, unless they fall for The Thoughts of Chairman Puts. <p> Why did you choose the M7? that is the question to ask yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_collier5 Posted March 13, 2002 Share Posted March 13, 2002 Simple! I would eliminate the consumer. Noisy, hard to keep happy and always moaning about something. The darn critters blame the camera every time the dim bulb behind viewfinder cannot figure things out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leonid Posted March 13, 2002 Share Posted March 13, 2002 Oops , I thought you were talking about the m6 . By the way ,Vikram brings up a good point , why do you want an m7 ( as opposed to an m6 ,m4,m3,m2,m5 ) ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_kastner Posted March 13, 2002 Share Posted March 13, 2002 Hey Ray! <p>Actually, I think this is a good question (many questions here have been asked over and over again but somehow yours is somewhat original. At least for an M :) <p>These are all questions I asked myself and answered myself (with the help of everybody here, and I being a perfectionist, now wouldn't change any of my choices tomorrow. I thus have no peeves. <p>To change or fix could be: <p>(a) M6 or M7: 0.72 or 0.85 or 0.58... <br>(b) ... (a) depending of course on the lens(es) wanted/needed, <br>© depending of course on (a), a 1.25x mag <br>(d) M6 or M7 vs everything earlier (except likely M5) <br>(e) M6 classic vs M6TTL <br>(f) any M6 vs M7 <br>(g) black or chrome <p>That's all I can think of today. Tomorrow means more. <p>Just do it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay_. Posted March 13, 2002 Share Posted March 13, 2002 I agree with the idea of renting a Leica before you buy it. It will likely be some time before you can rent an M7, though. But the M6TTL is not that much different that you could extrapolate as to whether the M7 is more or less suitable to you. You could always buy a used M6, use it, then either sell it (for what you paid) or keep it as a backup to the M7. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_kastner Posted March 13, 2002 Share Posted March 13, 2002 <b>John!</b> I just don't understand anything you said above here (although I have always understood everything (I think) and appreciated everything you have ever written here and elsewhere)... but me too being a northern Albertan, may I ask you -- please -- to enlarge here??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikep1 Posted March 13, 2002 Share Posted March 13, 2002 Well, of course there's that pesky loading method and the fact that you have to focus ALL BY YOURSELF. That stupid off-center tripod socket is pretty dumb and the archaic non-matrix metering is, well, where's my buggy whip? You have to MANUALLY WIND the dang film and the dinosaur-era cloth focal plane shutter only goes to 1000/sec. <p> Then there's the rangefinder that doesn't view through the lens and the need for accessory finders for various wide-angles and the fact that it's nearly useless for REAL telephoto. <p> Hopefully they'll correct all these shortcomings one of these days! ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_darnton1 Posted March 13, 2002 Share Posted March 13, 2002 I think the thing that might be the worst irritation could be that you discover after you've spent all that money that you're an SLR person, not an RF person. If that happens, then all the little gripes won't matter, because you'll find yourself never using the camera at all. Do you have enough RF experience to know what you're getting into? Because it's not just a bigger P&S--the whole way you approach seeing pictures is different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralph_barker Posted March 13, 2002 Share Posted March 13, 2002 Welcome (soon) to the world of the M, Ray. I've only had my M6 TTL (also a 0.72) for about a year, but I've been taking photographs for about 40 years, and I'm very pleased with the M. It's a new way of seeing compared to other formats. What I've found in using it couldn't be called pet peeves, but rather learning or self-training experiences. (I still use my Nikons, and medium- and large-format cameras where their features are more appropriate to the task.) <p> I'm occasionally bitten by rangefinder flair, but found raising my eye position a touch usually solves most of that - enough, at least, to focus on what I want. I also find that I'm constantly grabbing the camera in such a was as to leave finger prints on the front viewfinder window. Wearing a single white cotton glove might solve that, but I'm too chubby and too old to do the Michael Jackson thing. <p> I also use the M in the studio on occasion, mixing it with other cameras. Sometimes, the sync socket didn't work, and I thought it was the connector being too sensitive to sizing of the connector on the cord. Turns out, the M sync circuit is polarity sensitive, and reversing the household-type connector in the other cord socket instantly solved the problem. <p> Likely, your biggest decision will be picking a spot to stick the baseplate when changing film in the field. Shirt pocket? Pants pocket? Try to resist the temptation of holding it in your mouth, however. Toothmarks on the baseplate will reduce the resale value. ;-) <p> As your target is low-light work, I assume you've made the 'Lux/'Cron decision based on cost/benefit. The 0.72 choice is good for your first M, I think, as it gives you flexibility. My second body will likely be a 0.85, however, for greater convenience with the longer lenses. I opted for the 24mm Elmarit, rather than one of the 28mm lenses, so the 28mm frame in the 0.72 is an unused feature for me, but that's OK. Your choice of the M7 also makes sense, if you like the <i>option</i> of using aperture-based AE. That's a personal style choice. <p> The only thing about the M that even approaches a pet peeve for me is the flash sync speed. 1/50 is very limiting for fill flash, but can be overcome to a degree with on-flash compensation controls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eliot Posted March 13, 2002 Share Posted March 13, 2002 I like the M and have no major complaints. If I had to choose one thing it would be [as above] the slow sync speed that is non- conducive to fill flash for backlit situations. This is the only kind of flash I ever do, and usually requires a higher sync speed than 1/50 sec to properly expose the background. The M7 partially addresses this (after a fashion) by providing HSS (1/250-1/1000) with a special Metz flash unit. But the basic sync speed otherwise remains at 1/50 sec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_b.2 Posted March 13, 2002 Share Posted March 13, 2002 My main pet peeve with the entire Leica system is the $40 plastic lens cap, after you've lost one. I should have known! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred4 Posted March 13, 2002 Share Posted March 13, 2002 I would get rid of the whiny customers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dennis_couvillion Posted March 13, 2002 Share Posted March 13, 2002 Built-in flash and automatic rewind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ray_moth Posted March 13, 2002 Share Posted March 13, 2002 I was tempted to suggest something dumb, like mirror and aperture pre- fire lock-up and a stop-down lever for DoF preview but, on second thoughts, I won't suggest anything so silly. <p> However, I would vote for the base-plate (or motor or RapidWinder) to be held captive with the body while changing the film. That way, you'd only need two hands. Another improvement could be built-in switchable eyepieces (.58-.72-.85) so you wouldn't have to buy multiple bodies just to get different viewfinder magnifications. You'd still want multiple bodies, though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoeica images Posted March 13, 2002 Share Posted March 13, 2002 Simple. Bring back the M3 or M2 as a lower priced Leica M. No meter, 3 frames only, and you get a self-timer! They could sell for $1000 or less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david_killick Posted March 14, 2002 Share Posted March 14, 2002 I really think the built-in meter (M5,6,7,CL) does help when shooting fast in varying light conditions. Otherwise I think the ergonomics, focusing, and viewfinder on all Ms are excellent, and the optics - even the old ones -- are superb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy_piper2 Posted March 14, 2002 Share Posted March 14, 2002 I don't know that I have many peeves - or I'd be using something else. <p> IMHO one of the BEST features of the M4x/5/6/7 is the loading, once you get used to it (no joke!). It is now easier for me to load than any other 35mm except those with motorized auto-loading. No futzing with a pull-up rewind knob or little slots in the take-up spool, and the finished cassette just drops out into your hand. But as a newbie you will need to overcome the temptation to 'help' Leica's autoload system by opening the back to align the film with the sprockets, or bend the film tip, or other useless stuff. Check the http://nemeng.com/leica/ page for the same instructions that set me on the right path. <p> Features I'd like to see - 1.0x viewfinder to shoot with both eyes open with the 50/75/90/135 lenses - faster sync speed (which the M7 delivers, sort of) - more reliable motor (not likely, given Leica electronic aptitude and the basic mechnical design of the M) - that's about it. I personally dislike the return of the M3-style guard ring around the lens-release button - fortunately my M4-2/Ps don't have it, and I've never accidently unmounted a lens. <p> It's not a perfect camera in some cosmic sense, but it's darn near perfect for the things it does best - "unobtrusive handheld low [or even bright] light stuff, without flash". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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