Noctilux vs Summilux for documentary work

[noah]

I'm sure similar questions have been asked before, but I'm

looking for advice from people who have used these lenses for

the kind of work I do.

 

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I'm debating which 50 to get for my M system. (I currently have a

28 'cron, 35 'lux and 75 'lux.) I'm wondering if anyone has

experience using the Noctilux for documentary work. I'm very

tempted by that magical "f/1", but I have a few concerns. I'm

wondering if the DOF is so small that it would be difficult to focus

accurately in situations where things aren't standing still. I'm

also worried that the vignetting and unique optical fingerprint I've

read about might be too distracting for this type of work.

 

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Any thoughts and/or examples of work on this subject would be

greatly appreciated.

[mostly sports]

Don't forget the weight, and the more intimidating "presence." Have

you felt the need for more speed than your 'luxes provide?

[raymond_tai]

Can you please explain exactly what you will be shooting?

[chris_chen4]

The DoF on the Noctilux is very shallow, but it shouldn't be hard

to handle if you're already proficient w/the 75 Summilux, which

has the shallowest DoF of any Leica lens @ a given distance (if

you haven't seen it, check out this <a

href="http://greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_i

d=008vT4">thread</a>). As to the vignetting & optical fingerprint

being distracting, I think that would depend on the specific

subject matter, lighting conditions, etc.

[schopke]

I have a Noctilux and I would not get rid of it for anything. The

weight and size of it is not a concern of mine. The weight does not

bother me one bit. The size, well it really is not a lot bigger than

the 50mm Lux. People who complain about the size and weight probably

have never owned a Noct (and maybe would not care to own one ever,

thats ok). I have to be honest with you, I seldom get my Noct to f1.0

In fact I shoot HP5 @ 400iso and in low light situation I am normally

at f1.4. Which would be great with the Lux.

 

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However, I am currently experimenting with the Dark Red 29 (hellrot)

and Light Red 25 (dimplerot) filters in daylight to attempt to create

effects that simply are not possible on the Lux (given the extra

stop). Also, portraiture by candle light, using pen lights to light a

night scene, or simply having the extra stop to further blow out

backgrounds are examples of different effects that you could create

with the Noct but would be harder, if possible at all, with the Lux.

 

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The focus at f1.0 is harder, due to shallower DOF, and Leica has

increase the focus ring travel to allow for finer adjustments to be

made with the Noct. Worries about vignetting are unfounded because at

f1.4 and smaller there is no vignette. At appertures larger than f1.4

(ie. f1.0) the vignette is minimal due to having such a darkened

scene to begin with. Any vignette that you do have at f1.0 only adds

to the photo's mystique.

 

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The optical finerprint is unique. The optical qualities behind this

lens is what has given it the following it has. It is an amazing lens

to say the least. This lens behaves like no other like it. Personally

I LOVE the UNIQUE optical qualities of this lens. With this lens, and

this lens only, pictures can be taken unlike any other camera, lens,

or system available anywhere.

 

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Sure Cannon makes a 50mm f1.0. And the optical qualities are close,

though not as beautiful or handsome as the Noct's optical abilities.

You see, Cannon copied the optical design of the Noct. But leaving

persoanl opinion out of this, look at the Cannon's system. Take a

state of the art EOS and put Cannon's 50mm f1.0EF on it. You could

shoot HANDHELD at f1.0 at 1/60th of a second. Due to the cameras

vibration, a 1/60th shutter speed is necessary. Now with the Lecia M,

any M, with the Noct set at f1.0 you could shoot at 1/15th of a

second HANDHELD. That is two whole stops! That is 400% more light

being recorded with the Noct. The next closest is an M with a Lux at

f1.4 at 1/15th.

 

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You really cannot go wrong with either lens. You have decide for

yourself, if any of the Noct's qualities are to your liking then the

Noct. If you could care less then go with the Lux. Either way you

will be happy, and that's what's important. I have NOTHING bad to say

about the Lux, it is great and I have used one myself. Just don't

listen to those who would summarily dismiss the Noct because of size

or weight or some other lame reason like that. Good luck to you!

[schopke]

Soory, I did not mean to write a novel.

[noah]

Rob, thanks for taking the time to write a detailed answer.

 

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To answer some of the questions, I shoot many different things

under different conditions. I have occasionally found myself

wishing for something faster than f/1.4, such as shooting by

candlelight during a power outage, etc. It also might be useful for

street photography at night. I recognize that it's a big lens, but I'm

not too worried about it being intimidating. It's still a heck of a lot

smaller than most SLR fast lenses.

[kristian dowling]

Documentary work usually erquires quick thinking and quick actions to

match. Focusing the heavy Noctilux at f/1 will be challenging to do

accurately and quickly. Sure, it will still allow you to get the

shot, but the 35 Lux will focus faster and allow more room for error

with slightly increased depth of field. Shutter speed should be

similar at low light levels.

 

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I'd only go the Noct if you want to explore the OOF ability of the

lens at the 50mm focal length. Otherwise, you'd probably be better

served with a Summicron or Lux. But if you like the 50mm focal length

and will use it a lot, the Noct would be the best as it could do

evrything and never be limited.

[mike dixon]

I use the 50 Summilux a lot for night photography and regularly find

that I'm shooting at 1/25 and f1.4 to 1.7 (even with 3200-speed film)

in dark bars or clubs. I wouldn't consider the extra stop essential,

but it would certainly be useful.

[ray_moth]

Rob Schopke: by calling it a novel, are you saying that what you

wrote was fiction? If so, it's a pity because I enjoyed reading it. :-

) It's seldom one gets the chance to read so much information about

the Noctilux from a genuine owner and user of that lens.

[james_.1]

Even if the 35 lux has slower shutter speeds at 1.4 compared to the

noctilux's 1.0, wouldn't the shorter focal length make it as hand-

holdable? Just curious, I think I read that somewhere. But, as

mentioned by Kristian, if you like the 50mm...

[jacques_balthazar1]

Noah,

 

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The faster the better, as you already know. DoF management must be

somewhat easier than with the 75 at f1.4, as pointed above. I'm more

and more convinced that the Nocti is the ultimate "standard" lens.

it's only downside (if you accept weight/volume) is the fact that

minimum focus is 1m, while minimum focus for 35 asph 'lux, 75 'lux

and latest 50 'lux is 0.70m. That might make a real difference in

clubs, living quarters, etc, where your subject is often sitting at

narrow table distance.... No tight head/shoulders with the Nocti. But

there, the 75 shines at its peak !

[raymond_tai]

I would think dof is very important for street photography. Unless

you are shooting at near infinity I would think the Summicron is a

better choice. For me the most annoying peave is when there are two

people interacting in the shot but one is slightly out of focus.

This is enough for me to trash the negative. OT: I actually see a

lot of weddings done by "profesionals" where some faces in group

shots are out of focus. This is enough to earn the hack a kick in

the nuts.

[jacques_balthazar1]

Ray,

 

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I do not quite understand your remark: the Nocti gives exactly the

same DoF as the 'cron at same apertures, obviously...

 

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To get more DoF with the Nocti, you are allowed to close it down:

it's aperture ring is not stuck and fixed at f1 !

 

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On the other hand, you cannot open the 'cron beyond f2, and you are

stuck much earlier than the Noctilux user once the light starts

saying "nay"....

[raymond_tai]

Jacques,

 

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Well yes the Noctilux can be stopped down and some may even consider

using it as a general purpose standard lens. However the

disadvantages of size, weight, balance, viewfinder blockage may be

tolarated for f/1 or even f/1.4 during actual use but I must draw the

line at smaller apertures. It is just my opinion that documentary or

street photography do better with wider dof something f/1 cannot

provide. I don't think anyone will be whipped and caned for using a

Noctilux at f/2.8 :)

[nesrani]

"I do not quite understand your remark: the Nocti gives exactly the

same DoF as the 'cron at same apertures, obviously... "

 

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Is that true, though? My wife uses Nikon equipment professionally and

she says that in her opinion the DOF of my Leica lenses is greater

than that of the equivalent Nikon lenses (say M35/1.4asph v

nikkor35/1.4). Something to do with the transition between sharp

focus and OOF areas? I don't know. It seems wrong in theory, but she

has her head screwed on pretty well, so I don't discount the idea.

[kristian dowling]

Rob, the first difference between the Nikkon and Leica 35/1.4 lens I

noticed was the same as your wife. The Leica wide open is much

sharper than the Nikon, thus emphasizing the difference between "in"

and "out" of focus areas. And this is a good thing- cause I now own

the Leica!!! **James's grin**

[jacques_balthazar1]

Rob,

 

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This seems to lead to the eternal bokeh discussion I think, rather

than strict DoF maths.

 

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I suppose one lens of a given focal length at a given aperture with a

given subject might render an *impression* of a deeper depth of focus

than another lens of same focal length, using same aperture and

capturing same subject because of the way spherical and other

aberrations step in once you are beyond the strict plane of exact

focus....

 

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This would not necessarily mean that the measurement of the circle of

confusion would lead to mathematically "acceptable" figures in the

instance giving deeper sharpness depth impression...

[stefan www.randlkofer.co]

if you'd go for the summilux, you'd have the same filtersize on all

of your lenses. very handy...

[karl_yik1]

You have to ask yourself the question of whether the benefit of

having just 1 extra stop overide all the other disadvantages of the

Noct. In terms of pure technical performance, the Summilux is better

than the Noct at every F stop and convenience the Summilux again wins

hands down. But the Noct's optical imperfections give it a

fingerprint that no other lens can create and hence has a lot of

followers.

 

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I recently traded in a 50Cron for a Noct (to use as a general purpose

50mm), but have not had a chance to do any available dark shooting,

so I cant comment on its F1 performance. Performance when stopped

down is still pretty good, its not as crap as some people say.

[eliot]

"Sure Cannon makes a 50mm f1.0. And the optical qualities are close,

though not as beautiful or handsome as the Noct's optical abilities.

You see, Cannon copied the optical design of the Noct."

 

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The Canon designers would be very interested in reading this! Since

the 50/1.0 EF Canon is an element element lens with an aspherical

element, while the Noctilux is a seven element lens with very high

refraction glass and NO aspherical element, this is VERY unlikely.

Where did you get this information?

[eliot]

Sorry. It should read the Canon EF-L 50/1.0 lens is an eleven

element design while the 50/1 Noctilux is a seven element design.

[rogan]

Look at it this way. A fast lense of any sort is more the preserve of

SLR's cameras for reasons that are specific - having to review the

scene through the lens. This becomes more or less academic using a

range finder. Thereafter, why the lense? Artistic factors or just to

look good - this being mainly due to the fact that you have a fancy

piece of expensive glass dangling from your shoulder. Strange stuff.

Having grown up in school where a person at full height was the

distance of 15 feet in the horizontal and 10 feet in the vertical,

that an eighth of second was 3 clicks counterclock-wise and most of

the work was done using a collapsible 50mm sumicron set at 5.6 and

all of this using a single hand comes close to where its at in social

documentary stuff - on the street that is. F 1 and faster lenses were

essentially the preserve of X-rayography. One needs to figure out

here the corolation here between that, documentary photography and

posing ...

[schopke]

Eliot,

 

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I thought it was from Puts. There was a side by side schmatic of the

50mm f1.0EF and the Noct. The two different lenses had the same

element design and almost the same shape. If this is now out of date,

maybe Connon has changed the design of their lens. I have tried to

find the source but at the monent I cannot find it. i will keep

looking.

 

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Noah,

You may want to look at these sites

http://www.nemeng.com/leica/040b.shtml

beverlyhillscamera@earthlink.net You can rent a Noct

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/noctilux.htm

http://www.shinozuka-family.com/f1/index.html Great Images

[eliot]

Canon has not redesigned the 50/1.0. It has always been an eleven

element design with an aspherical element. I don't see how it is

possible that this design could have been copied from Leica. I doubt

you saw this on Erwin's site. It is just plain wrong.