Photography competition...

[patrick_viebey___orlando__]

I'm curious of something and thought I'd ask it at a top level

instead of creating a fragment in somebody elses question.

 

This is for the 'old timers' out there who do wedding photography.

We see a lot of 'great news! I just bought a camera and now I'm in

the wedding photography business, but how do I take a picture...'

type of posts. This is usually followed by some nice cooperative

help, as well as usually commentaries about undertaking a task with

limited or no experience. So, here's what I'm wondering:

 

1: Is this a new phenomenon? Did digital create it, or just make it

worse? I suspect it's always been there, but the advances in both

film and digital just make it easier for rank amateurs to 'step in'?

 

2: Are they any type of serious competition to you? What I mean is,

you long established folks have an established base of people who

recommend you, a long list of success, and I would expect usually a

more premium price (based on your 'product'). So, I wonder if

these 'bottom feeders' are really just taking the business that

would have been done by somebodies brother for free, or is it really

creating an issue for you?

 

In general, I also wonder if there shouldn't be a 'Newbie Business

Photographer' forum, so the newbies can share/relate/plan together?

The amount of naivete I see in some of the questions over and over

makes me wonder if we shouldn't create a forum more targeted to

their needs?

 

Thanks for letting me scratch this itch!

 

pat

[peta]

It is serious - serious that newbies cannot be encouraged in what I thought was a site to LEARN and be encouraged. I need to see examples of your work Pat, as 2 others who I read this morning on another thread were not able to back up their arrogant put down of the person asking the 'newbie' question. There work was not extraordinary at all. Mundane.

 

I understand your frustration in a business sense, but the tone here should not be getting arrogant, I learnt from observing and being encouraged by top notch photographers I discovered here and at 2 other sites. They always offered sound advice, and their work backed it up.

[david_schilling___chicago_]

I think that the "newbies" help keep the forum lively and interesting. I do wish that they would ask specific questions rather than asking about a topic that would take a chapter out of a book to answer and that they first search the forum for the same questions which keep getting asked again and again.

 

I don't believe that newbies offer serious competitions to established studios....now, the larger studios that are hiring a primary shooter for $250 and sending an assistant/2nd shooter with a digital camera ($100) and are discounting the fee to under $1000 are likely to become the new "Walmart" of the profession. They could easily have the same effect that Walmart has had on the established downtown mom/pop shops.

[patrick_viebey___orlando__]

Folks:

 

FWIW, to make things a bit clearer, I'm NOT an old timer. If I was, I wouldn't have asked the question....

 

Sorry if I struck a nerve on the newbie forum. Actually, beyond the questions we usually see, I can see a whole bunch of other activities that these folks may not even have enough information yet to ask. And, by putting them in a forum, they could share together (as well as the experts here will do their usual awesome job of helping). My thought wasn't to isolate them - but to collect the things they're learning into a location that makes it easier for them to learn new stuff without sifting through everything else...which, to be honest, is part of what I'm trying to do here myself. I'm here to learn, too....

 

But maybe that was a stupid idea. It sorta got stuck on the end of my original thought and wasn't as well thought out, so please consider that idea dumb and withdrawn.

 

But, trust me, I'm not established enough to be 'arrogant' <grin>...

[brooks short]

I've always wondered why does wedding photography seem to attract more of these types of beginner posts than other areas of commercial photography.

 

I hardly ever see questions that go..."I just purchased a (digital) camera and have a PR, product, industrial, food, fashion, corporate etc. shoot next week. Anyone have any pointers and what lens or flash should I get?"

 

I've seen occasional questions about product lighting on the lighting forum but here there seems to be a basic beginner question like this every other day recently.

 

What is it about Wedding Photography that attracts so many beginners? I have a few guesses of my own but I'd be really interested to hear what other people have to say.

[keith_van_hulle1]

Because everyone knows how easy it is to be a wedding shooter!

[timcorridan]

this question has been asked many times in itself, now re-hashed again. If you don't like the basic questions, simply move on to the next. the forum rules are clear." This forum is open to professionals and amatuers alike However, professional behavior is expected"

[keith_van_hulle1]

Sorry, couldn't resist. Yes, I was a fairly successful one for five years. Doubtful I'd ever do it again; it's not what I consider fun any longer - and if you're not having fun, why shoot?

 

I think the masses have always envisioned that (a) it's so easy to take pictures and (b) how romantic it would be to be a wedding shooter. Couple those thoughts with digital and you just lowered the barriers to entry that still exist in other areas of photography (stock is another one).

 

It's just life. There will, because of digital, always be a small percentage who think a full day shoot can be done (with profit) for $500. And there will be customers demanding just that. They should be entitled to something even if they can't afford 1-2K for an experienced/skillful shooter. But at least some of those people were there before digital with their film cameras too. Face it, except for the mid- to high-end shooters, wedding photography is fast becoming a commodity type of business.

 

And do you REALLY think newbie-based forums will make a difference to the type of people we're talking about? The other forums would STILL be polluted with the USENET level crap that is becoming more prevalent on PN. It's the nature of people.

[conraderb]

Good question. (and sorry if I'm the once who was stomping on the newbie's toes. I think that people who try to get money for shooting a wedding w/ no experience are just asking for trouble, whether or not they are being paid $10 or $1000).

 

1) Digital makes it 'worse' in the sense that lots of people have the tools to learn HOW to take great pictures - ie. learning the concept of exposure. But I believe that this is actually good - people will take better pictures and the world will be better for it. So, it's only worse if you want photography to be so difficult that it requires 10 years of intensive training :-)

 

Digital has flooded the market, yes. But how many of those photographers really have a good eye and have good technical skills? Relatively few. Since we have more images overall in our society, and most images are not up to professional quality (ie. camera phones and such), I think that the plethora of digital imaging that we are exposed to makes the really excellent work look even better. How many of these newbies understand bounce or off-camera flash well? Chalk up another advantage to the images of the experienced pros. How many of them know DOF? Chalk up another one.

 

2) Obviously a significant downward pressure on the lowest end, since a total newbie with a DSLR won't need to ask for $150 for film and developing. However, for someone who takes the time to learn what they are doing technically, and can distinguish themselves artistically, I don't think that it's a big problem. By the time they learn all of it and work their bums off at a wedding, they will be charging much more (and like I did, transition from a hobby shooter to a semi-pro).

 

CE

[phil_p]

Well, I'm sure it's the prospect of money that attracts a lot of newer folks into attempting to do weddings. Weddings are perhaps the easiest way to make money in photography nowadays. Digital makes it somewhat easier to get started and perhaps at a lower cost per wedding. When film was basically all that was available, it took some real dedication to do weddings, not to mention continuous costs such as buying and processing film. With digital, you just make an initial investment in a camera, lens, and some cards, and you're (somewhat) good to go.

 

Now, I'm a relative wedding newbie, so I'm speaking from my own thoughts. I had wanted to get a digital SLR for some time, as I had been a Canon EOS film user since my college newspaper days, and I had some gear and know-how. But I couldn't really justify the cost of buying stuff at the time, since I had my film gear and digital would essentially be a luxury item. I've always gotten comments about the quality of my photos when I did portraits as favors, and I was good at doing sports, so I figured I could handle weddings pretty easily and that it would be a way of recovering costs associated with my hobby. So I've done a couple of weddings, and I'm happy with the results, and it can only go up from here. Digital has definitely made it easier to make the transition. If I were to only shoot film, I doubt I would be interested in making the leap, since I'd have to constantly order film, pay for processing, and since I like photoshop, probably buy a scanner for film. I know in some ways digital takes as much if not more work than film, but after the initial acquisition costs, it seems to allow more profit and less running around town or to the post office.

 

I don't think of myself as competition for anyone. I just put my link up on free vendor sites, and if anyone finds their way to me, great. I don't charge a lot, definitely on the lower end here in my area, and that's fine. Every budget deserves to have photography. I think eventually I would like to cater to a more affluent audience (I've only been working half a year), but right now I'm getting a little extra cash to support my hobby and since I've moved to digital my passion for photography has grown exponentially. I'm more likely to experiment now that I dont have to pay for a print or processing any bad shots (of course, I pay for screwups in the way of memory cards, it just doesn't feel that way). Long post, but hopefully it sheds a little light on the whole newbie wedding photog phenomenon.

[rich_dutchman1]

1. There's a flood now, just like there was a flood when AF, matrix metering, and "smart flash" were new thing in the late 80s/early 90s.

 

2. There have always been discount photographers. And there have always been discount brides. They're made for each other.

[susan_flewelling]

There is a ton of new photographers because of digital. Although I believe that if you are truly in love with what you do and you are great at it, you will never have problems getting business. Of course I was also a marketing major so that may be why I am fairly versatile. I was in business for 6 years in Denver and have moved to the Southern California market a year ago. So in essence I am a newbie because I am starting over but an old timer because of my years in the business. I think it would be great to have a newbie forum but their best information is going to come from photographers who have been around the block.

 

I am never against helping any one in this business. I think that if I share others will share with me. I understand that is a bit naive but that is the way I prefer to run my life and business. It makes me happy and to be honest it has also made me money. Yes it is hard to see people giving stuff away but we were all there at one time. For them to continue and make it worth while they will have to find a way to make money. Think of it as a pyramid sceme. You are always going to be on top!!

[think27]

"tim corridan = Photo.net Patron, jan 24, 2006; 03:56 p.m.

...If you don't like the basic questions, simply move on to the next. the forum rules are clear." This forum is open to professionals and amatuers alike However, professional behavior is expected"

 

Tim is correct!!

 

This is a forum for pros and amatuers alike.

 

There is a category for NEWCOMERS to the right of the forum that people keep reminding newbies to check out before posting questions....

 

There is also a great way to search on PN for your info....

 

Go to Google - Advanced search. Type in a simple phrase about what you are looking for in "exact phrase" and a few other kewords above the "exact phrase" block. Then - put photo.net as the only site to look in. You'll get lots of very specfic info on your questions.

 

If you don't find what you need - or need to go into greater depth...Feel free to post a question.

 

We try to be newbie friendly. Many of us were newbies once as well.

 

As to can newbies be competition?

 

Well - there is a girl on PN who has asked for some help here on PN and assisted me once. She did a few more assists elsewhere. She did her first wedding in June, 2005...unpaid for a friend. She did a pretty good job.

 

She is now advertising on a TON of wedding oriented companies... Her starting price is $2200. Wow.

 

Is she competition.. Not really. I feel there is plenty of business to go around and probably if she gets a request and she's booked - she'll send it my way since I helped her a little. I start almost 1,000 more and sure I could loose some budget concious brides. Do I think she's gone a little too fast too soon! Absolutely! I worry for her because she may not realize that there are too many situations to count that she hasn't run into yet. I wouldn't advise anyone to make that kind of jump that fast..but she could get lucky..and she does have some talent. I wish her well.

[phil vaughan - yorkshire u]

<i>"What is it about Wedding Photography that attracts so many beginners? I have a few guesses of my own but I'd be really interested to hear what other people have to say.</i><p>Why do wedding photographers find this such a difficult question?<p>How many people in your neighbourhood are going to hire a photographer for product shots in the next five years? How many will buy fine art photography? How many will get married? <p>The answer really is that simple. And as Rich said so eloquently, it happens every time there's a technological advancement in photography.<p> How many long time pro's decided they'd have a go because it's got easier with auto stop down lenses? how many jumped on the bandwagon with auto exposure modes? or with AF? If they took to it at any of those points does it make them less of a photographer? <p>So will the newcomers with their digital cameras sink or swim because of the technology, or will they stay around because they have what it takes, or fail because they don't.

[ella]

So I haven't been shooting weddings for 20 years. My clients know this. I am in my mid 20's...I didn't pop out of the womb with a camera in my hand! I don't charge $4000 a wedding because I only have five years experience. I feel like I've been shooting forever, but compared to people with 30 years experience, I'm just a baby.

 

It bothers me when photographers are referred to as "bottom feeders". What's with the negativity? Everyone has to start somewhere and usually are not able to make the big bucks until they've been at it for a little while. A photographer who charges $200 a wedding isn't taking away any business from one who charges $1000 a wedding, who in turn isn't taking away any business from someone who charges $4000 a wedding. There is a place for everyone.

[brooks short]

Earlier I asked, "What is it about Wedding Photography that attracts so many beginners?"

 

And Phil responded, "Why do wedding photographers find this such a difficult question?"

 

Well, actually Phil, I'm not a wedding photographer, I'm an advertising commercial photographer. And I don't think it's a difficult question but I am curious as to why other people feel that wedding photography attracts so many beginners. More specifically why so many untrained beginners start with wedding photography.

 

I also said that I had a few guesses about this so at the risk of being flamed I'll share them here.

 

As Phil P. said earlier "weddings are perhaps the easiest way to make money in photography nowadays". Actually I think there is a perception among beginners that weddings are easy money. I don't think that's actually the case, though.

 

I think good wedding photography is harder than much of the commercial work that I do. It's more difficult physically, and it takes much more "back-end" time after the wedding, dealing with proofs and prints, etc.

 

And it's much more difficult dealing with a retail public than working with professional art directors and designers who are knowledgeable about buying photography. I have yet to have a commercial client drunk before the end of a shoot! Maybe I need new clients, I don't know. #8^)

 

I think one reason so any beginners choose wedding photograpy is because it happens on the weekend and day jobs can be kept.

 

I think another reason beginners choose wedding photography is because that's the only personal experience they might have with professional photograpy, other than their school pictures. They don't know about the other, easier, more lucrative photography fields out there.

 

And as Phil Vaughan said there are a lot more people getting married than there are people needing architectural, product, corporate etc. photography. Yet somehow weding photography seems to be much more cutthroat and competitive.

 

So,the most common reasons beginners choose wedding photography, IMO is because they can do it part-time. $1000 for a day's work looks like a fantastic amount money. And many "customers" don't know good photography when they see it because they seldom see it in their own lives.

 

Is it getting hot in here, or is it just me?

[jon jacobson]

<i>I think good wedding photography is harder than much of the commercial work that I do. It's more difficult physically, and it takes much more "back-end" time after the wedding, dealing with proofs and prints, etc.</i>

<p>

Brooks, I think you're almost on to something, but not quite there. When it comes to advertising and commercial work, it's business to business sales.

<p>

In some ways, selling photographic services to an ad agency is sort of a consumable. Once a shooter is established, they are called again and again.

<p>

Whereas, the wedding shooter is <i>mostly</i> a one time gig. And the newcomer is your average Joe Consumer, selling (and I use that term loosley) to another average Joe Consumer.

<p>

<i>And it's much more difficult dealing with a retail public than working with professional art directors and designers who are knowledgeable about buying photography.</i>

<p>

This is by-in-large the unknown variable. Joe Consumer with the new DSLR does not know how to approach the ad agency. But his neighbor's sister on the otherhand...

[laurenm]

Pat, I am a newbie and have found this site to be a wonderful source of information which is what first brought me here. Aside from knowledge, I have gained some wonderful friendships and I am constantly amazed at the wonderfully talented pros who so freely spend there own time to help me and others like me.

It does seem like the same group of pros tend to bother with helping us and I assume the others do as Mary and Tim suggested and skip the question and move on, just as I do when I see questions which either don't relate to me or are way over my head. Sometimes I notice no matter how basic the newbie question, there can be variations in answers which benefits all by reading different ideas and suggestions.

 

I am pursuing wedding photography because I have always loved photographing people at events. I love weddings, I love people and I love capturing emotion and expression on film so that memories can be saved and shared forever. I think I have a good eye for it and decent composition. Now to work on all the technical stuff...

I for one am not jumping in for the money or due to the "ease" of digital as I am comitted to learning on film (expensive as it may be). Someday maybe I could be competition to all the pros who have helped but hopefully I will remember where I came from and who helped me get there and as Mary said, if I ever had the need to refer someone to someone else out of state or local, I have a pool of wonderful pros to draw from. Anyway, I think a seperate forum would detract from the group input. What newbie wants advice from a newbie?

 

"What is it about Wedding Photography that attracts so many beginners?"

 

I'm just curious what field photography or other DOESN"T have beginners? Is there some genetic DNA phenomenon I don't know about where people are born already experienced in a particular profession or skill?

 

"$1000 for a day's work looks like a fantastic amount money."

 

I don't think any newbies on here really thinks that the pay you get as a wedding photographer is for one day's work. I think most (including those doing budget weddings, which I have done one of myself) aspire to gain experience to some day justify charging enough $ to make a living at doing something they love. I don't think those who think its easy money would 1)ever be good enough to charge enough to live on 2) stick with it once they learn that it ISN"T easy money.

[image creations]

Seen alot of $1000/day references. Lets be realistic, thay 1k has to pay for a week of work, paying down the debt to purchase all the equipment and any other expenses needed just to be there for the day. Wedding photography intices the amature because of the relative ease. They don't usually see the behind the scenes havok that can totally screw up a non prepared photographer. I have yet to get a wedding of my own but have assited on three and am pursuing portrait work more to hone my lighting skills and burn in my posing skills. I one day hope to secure a wedding contract and produce a job that pleases not only the client but myself as well. I read almost every post in this forum and the lighting forum. I thank all who reply to my posts and I try to learn and apply the suggestions I read about. Hopefully I'm improving.

[khaisy]

It is an interesting conversion some of these comments were great but there are 3 people I have to say thanks. Tim, Mary and Ella with no disrespect to anyone because there were so many good comments here. I am for sharing what you know. There are plenty of fish in the sea how many you catch depends of how good of fisherman you are after this said, let me put my 2 cents here for what ever it is worth and maybe nothing. I ask yourself this: would a big company hire uncle Joe to do their product or commercial photography? Would they hire a photographer who just purchased his 20d or D100 and having hard time buying fast lenses because he can't afford it? It isn't entirely impossible but the chances are very slim. Who would pay the DJ and caterer premium? Who would pay for cake and the flowers more than the photographer and in some cases they will cost more than the Videographer combined yet when it comes to the photographer over the sudden there isn't enough in the budget. Not all will try to find the cheapest one but plenty of brides do. Is it because of digital? Maybe, but I have seen it with film many times before. I knew someone who did the video and photography all day for $650 he will hold the camera in his right hand and the video in other hand. I kid you not .Was he very busy? Yes, every weekend he had two functions. Maybe you are correct some need to search for a questions before posting but remember if they do not ask, They will not know and if you did not guide them in the right direction, never mind giving them an answer, they will be always someone that is lost and I am very sure that they are very grateful as I am to find this wealthy forum that has so many things to learn and so many good folks who are eager to share and they are very respectful in their response knowing that their questions are basic. I am a part time photographer, Videographer and a film maker who has love for doing weddings, if it was not for a long hours of work at my day job I probably would have known more than I should have already know and I am sure some of you would agree with this: We are always learning and we learn something everyday some we might use and some we will never use, no matter how much we think we know, we walk through life thinking that we know it all till we hear or see something we have never seen we realize there so much we do not know. I am grateful for all of you here and I learn something everyday. Smile life is too short

Cheers!!!!<div></div>

[johnw436]

I am very much in agreement with Brooks Short's point about being able to work weekends and keeping the day job.

 

I normally would not chime in for a mulititude of reasons, the least of which being that I am a hobbyist and not remotely qualified to discuss wedding photography. I think it's tough to ask a working pro why so many beginners gravitate to wedding photography. So, as one of those amateurs, let me tell you why it crosses my mind.

 

Amateur would be a step up for me. Heck, at this stage "amateur" almost seems a title of prestige... and that brings my ramblings back to the point-

 

Many of the amateurs that I know feel as I do. "How great would it be if this hobby paid for itself?!" The better I get the more I expect from myself. I have now ventured into MF and things are getting progressively more expensive. I'm reaching the point where clueless oblivions (my family and friends) think my photos are awesome. Bear in mind that to anyone who can't work an SLR anything remotely acceptable is way beyond what they are accustomed to seeing in print form. I think many pros, who by nature are surrounded by pros and see pro work every day, forget that the general public can't begin to see the nuance in your work. Anything beyond mundane snapshots is good, or great, to them. Give me a glass of 200 dollar wine and I can't tell the difference from Supermarket table wine. Most people are that way with photography.

 

Back to the point. Somebody slap me...

 

Here I am as an amateur who is spending a lot of money on photography. If people I know think it's good, then maybe I could begin to recoup some money by selling my work. "How then do I go about it?" says the amateur. Should I make a bunch of prints and hang them on a rolling cart? I could push it down the street yelling, "Pictures. Get your pictures! Hey! Pictures here!"

 

I think wedding photography is appealing on some level because it happens on the weekends I have a very good day job. If I could make some dough on the weekends that would be more than fantastic. No, I'm not planning on doing weddings. I'd rather go on in obscurity for a while rather than botch someone's once-in-a-lifetime memories. But I think Brooks was right on, because his point is my exact reasoning.

 

For somebody like me who has no earthly clue how one goes about selling images commercially, wedding opportunities always seem available. "My cousin would pay you..."

[StuartMoxham]

I think for most people wedding photography is just more accessable than comercial photography. Most people often start by photographing the weddings of family and friends around them and so it goes on. Most people would probably say that you need the formal education to become a comercial photographer and for someone that has been working for many years going back to school may not be an option especialy if they have a family to support. While it may be possible to work as a comercial photographer without a studio, most comercial photographers have a studio. It is possible for a wedding photographer to work from home and if they never want to offer studio portraits they may never need a studio. Most people wanting to get into wedding photography only have 35mm experience some have medium format but very few have large format experience, large format was and often still is required for comercial photography. Lighting is another aspect, you need to understand lighting if you want to be a comercial photographer with weddings you can get away with on camera TTL flash. With equipment for weddings being more familiar to what a hobbiest may use that may account to why more are drawn to wedding photography. Weekend work has also been mentioned also.

[yankfan]

John.....you are SO right! You articulated exactly how I feel. While those around me marvel at some of the pictures I take, I consider myself a hack. But in the last month or so, I've probably gained more help and insight from this and other forums, than I could ever have imagined. I've been lucky enough to have a few things published, but the difference between me and some of the real pros here is like comparing a 1960 VW to a 2006 Ferrari. I bought my D70 last April, and I can assure you, I'm far from even contemplating doing weddings. Reading some of the horror stories some of the wedding photogs here have posted is enough to convince me not to enter the field of WP. Add to that a woeful lack of equipment. I think it's safe to say I won't do weddings, even if asked.