Which to buy? Mamiya M645, Yashicamat 124-g...

[gabriel_p.]

Hey guys I need some opinions here, if you please.. I'm a student

wanting to get into MF, and I restricted my search to a couple of

cameras accessible to me both as price and location. So here they are:

- Yashicamat 124-G with wide and tele convertors, in excellent

condition

- Mamiya M645 1000s with the 80mm/f2.8, but rated 7.5/10

- Mamiyaflex C (or C2, i'm not sure but it's one of the earlier

models), with 3 lenses (wide, standard, tele), looks pretty 'tired'

- Kiev 60 or 80, rated as 8 or 9/10

 

First of all i'm interested in image quality, so please let me know

how much of a difference is between them.

For example, are the mamiyaflex lenses much better than the yashica

one? And so on..

I should also mention that i intend to use the camera mostly in the

studio (it may not be possible to work at high f/stops like f8 or more

too often, and i know that counts in appreciating lens quality).

 

From my point of view, the yashica is in the best shape, the M645 i

fear it may be too worn (btw, how reliable are they?), the Mamiyaflex

is the most expensive (double of the yashica) and looks antique, and

the Kievs...well...i don't trust the russians.

 

If any of you out there can help me with any kind of comment or fact

from his experience in working with these cameras, i would be so

grateful!

Sorry for the long story here :)

 

Thanks a lot!

[35mmdelux]

easy answer - Yashicamat. Its in exc cond as you state and its 6x6. You couldn't go wrong. Try to use a tripod once in a while to get the most out of it. Good luck, Paul

[stwrtertbsratbs5]

What do you shoot? Portraits, landscapes, street shooting? You need to select the tool to match the task.

 

As for sources - check KEH.com for used gear.

 

Robert

[jimmy_english]

Also in favor of the Yashica is that it was considered a "consumer" rather than a "Professional" camera so it probably doesn't have heavy internal wear from years of daily use.

[randall ellis]

This is kind of a matter of personal preference. I have had all three over the years, and prefer the M645. Mine has never failed me and I have built a nice selection of lenses for not much money.

 

The Yashica TLR is nice, and makes square images, which have their own feel, but it has only the one lens option. You can use the add-on lenses, but I question the quality. I suggest that you always use a lens shade.

 

The Mamiya C series TLRs are also nice (I used to have a C33). The lenses are somewhat expensive and each has its own shutter that will need maintenance from time to time. If you want to do close up work, you'll need to get the paramender and spend some time getting the feel of it.

 

With the Kiev, well, you take your chances. I have heard of people who say they had a good one and from those who had problems. I have two Zorki-1s, FSU rangefinders, both of whice required me to overhaul them before use. I would expect the same from the Kiev straight from the FSU, but you can get them reconditioned, for a price.

 

Bottom line, if you want square images, aren't doing closeup work, and don't care overly about the limited selection of lenses, go with the TLRs. If you want a less expensive lens kit, more lenses to choose from, or would like to have the option to do closeups, go with the 645.

 

Again, of the three (Yashica, C33, and 645), I kept the M645. They are workhorses, but like any camera, even the most 'famous' brands, you will find someone who has had a bad experience. Make your own decision based on your shooting style and your intended use. I use my 645 every week, week after week, and have never been let down.

 

- Randy

[bueh]

I second the Mamiya M645. I have a Yashica-Mat 124G (among other TLRs) and rarely use it. Minimum focus distance is one meter, so close-ups and headshots are out. I have also the Kiev 60, but if picture quality is your game, I wouldn't count on it. Though it is really fun to use (especilly since I got mine cheap and repaired it myself), I think there are better and much more reliable choices for studio work.

<p>

In contrast, the M645 is a real joy to use and I can heartily recommend it and its excellent lenses. The waist-level finder of the M645 is brighter and better designed than the Y124G or K60, and the camera is very reliable and easy to use. A lot of people don't like the 645 format, so you will be able to get most lenses and accessories pretty cheap nowadays. But if you can, try to get the fast f/1.9 80mm lens. Why? Two words: Brighter viewfinder. The 1.9 wide open has terrific bokeh and is a very nice portrait lens. It may or may not be as sharp as the 2.8 between 1.9 and 4, but this has never given me sleepless nights. It is one of the fastest lenses available in medium format and not really expensive either.

<p>Of course a 6x7 camera with a revolving back (R*67) would be the best solution for studio work, but given your three choices I would always choose the M645 and definitively forget out the Ukrainian cameras. The Yashica-Mat is a nice camera and has also a great lens, but it offers only limited opportunities in comparison to the M645 system.

[pavelp]

In your case, probably the M645 (unless it's really ready to fall appart). You will be able to get whatever lenses you need at small price and the camera itself is a good base for a system. Also, if you decide to upgrade, you can just get better body for your lenses.

 

However, I noted that you consider f/8 a high f-stop number. If you use 80mm standard focal length lens, you may be running out of DOF at f/8 quite often. Of course it depends on what you shoot, but I'd check DOF tables to prevent unpleasant surprises.

[dean_williams]

The Yashica Mat is an excellent choice, but consider this; The tele and wide converter lenses for these are not all that great, so I wouldn't count them as any part of the bargain when it comes to price.<p>

The camera itself is very reliable, and there's little to go wrong with it if it's in good shape when you get it.

The minimum focus distance of 1m should be no problem at all. How often would you want to get closer than a meter from a person when doing protrait work? Even at the minimum for this lens the area covered by a person's face on the neg is enough for quite large enlargements.<p>

The shutter on the Yashica Mat will also sync at all speeds for flash.<p>

The Yashinon lenses on these are excellent.<p>

<p>

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<p>

The Mamiya 645s are very good cameras. Sturdy and reliable. You'll need a prism finder for it for portraits unless you don't mind looking sidways into the standard waist level finder for focusing and composing.<p>

A big plus is the number of supported lenses, and they are easy to find at decent prices.<p>

A number of different focusing screens and prisms/finders are available too.<p>

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<p>

The Mamiyaflex was a good machine. I'd pass on one that appears worn out, though. It well may be.<p>

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<p>

I own, or have owned the above cameras. Never had a Kiev. Only from what I've read will I say that I wouldn't want one as my only MF camera.

[gabriel_p.]

You're right, I forgot to mention that i intend to use the camera for portraits; I thought about the fixed lens issue and I concluded that an 80mm / min focus 1 meter is good enough for me, so it's not the possibility of changing the lens that bothers me, but, as I said, image quality.

 

So from what you all have written here (and I thank you so much for it, they are very good advices), it seems that the kievs and somewhat the Mamiyaflex are out of the question... That leaves the Yashica and the M645. (btw, i'm not counting too much on the wide/tele convertors either).

 

But still, it's not quite clear to me if there's a significant difference between M645 and Yashicamat optics, cause that's what counts for me the most, as i don't need a workhorse camera, just the best option of these for studio studies :)

 

So please, have your say on the M645 vs Yashica lens, head to head. It would really help me.

 

Thank you guys!

[simon_platt1]

Hi Gabriel

Just to put the cat amongst the pigeons. Have you considered looking at Bronica. The ETRSi is a lovely camera and you can find them used for suprisingly low prices. Beacuse there are a lot about you can wait and find your self a good one. I have used mine heavily over the last 15 years and never had a problem. The main reason I had for choosing a Bronica over a Mamiya was that all Bronica Lenses have flash sync up to 1/500 sec whereas only specific lenses in the Mamiya range do. Lots of people are put off by the fact that Bronica are discontinued. however that is really no different from the situation with the all the other cameras you mention as the 1000s is a fairly old model past the 7 year support period.

[peter_evans4]

<p><em>i intend to use the camera for portraits; I thought about the fixed lens issue and I concluded that an 80mm / min focus 1 meter is good enough for me, so it's not the possibility of changing the lens that bothers me, but, as I said, image quality</em></p><p>f5.6 or a smaller aperture, cable release, tripod, good lighting.</p>

[stwrtertbsratbs5]

Portraits? Just be aware that an 80mm lens is a normal lens and will distort tight head shots. It's fine for 1/2 body shots, though. But you really should look for a short telephoto.

 

I use a Mamiya 645 Pro TL with a 150mm f/3.5 lens for portraits. It's a great setup. Inexpensive and compact (for MF), too. A real plus is that I've printed to 16x20 with superb results. But you will need an inexpensive extension tube for tight shots.

 

I wouldn't buy any badly worn camera, though. There are a lot of really good MF deals around. So why settle for a worn camera?

 

I've also owned TLR's. Nice machines, but too limited for the type of shooting that I do.

 

Robert

[bueh]

Trust me, 1m (3.3 feet) minimum focus with an 80mm 6x6 lens is not so hot for portrait shootings. For tight headshots you have to crop about 50-60% of the image, so you lose a lot of advantage of the larger negative.<p>

Gabriel, all M645's lenses and the Yashinon (of the Y124G) are better performers that one will usually realize in most settings. Most medium format lenses of respectable manufacturers are and you won't see any difference between them. But what is image quality to you? Sharpness, contrast, resolution? Or rendering of out-of-focus areas (bokeh), the overall look of the picture, the lens' fingerprint? In my humble opinion there are even further factors that affect image quality -- easy of use, ergonomics, "foolproof-ness" and your personal access to the camera all help you realize the best pictures possible. My Graflex Miniature Speed Graphic produces outstanding, absolutely stunning images, but I find it hard to work with (ground glass focusing) and make to many frustrating mistakes with it, so I use my RZ67 if I need the best image quality. But if you are looking only for image quality, try an old press camera with a roll film back, else both the M645 and the Y124G are great cameras with excellent lenses, although I prefer the M645 because I like the handling and workflow of it (in addition to having more options etc). YMMV.

<p>

But if are a gearhead who only believes in hard facts, rest assured that <b><a href="http://www.pauck.de/marco/photo/stuff/comparison_of_quality/comparison_of_quality.html" target="_new">the Mamiya 80mm lens is a better performer than the Yashica-Mat lens</a></b> (which is very, very sharp and contrasty already).

[prashanteju]

Hello Gabriel,

I own both the cameras and love them.

But be aware YashicaMat is good only if you want to use the 80mm lense. The other attachments mentioned are below par I would say (from what I heard, never used). But the camera is a joy and work fantastic for portraits with some 'enviornment'. Head shots are also possible. The lense is sharp if used with proper technique.

 

That brings us to Mamiya645. I bought 645 and then 1000s and Super. Now I only have 1000s. The only possible disadvantage is no film backs otherwise it is one of the best MF camera made. 150mm lense is fantastic! I now only have 80mm/2.8 (1.9 is heavy and bulky and there is no much difference with the WLF, all of my HOland images are made with this lense). Bottomline, if you are fine with 645 format Mamiya is bang for the bucks. I sold the setup only beacause of moving to 67/LF. You can check out my images with both the cameras here and make decision for yourself. http://www.prashanteju.de

[geoff_mcauliffe]

The Yashica has an excellent lens but you will not be happy with the auxillary lenses, no one is. They just aren't very good. Also, the build quality of the Yashica is not there for the long haul. If you are doing portraits you don't need the sharpest lens in the world, too many lines and blemishes show up. The Mamiyaflex is excellent and very well built. It is heavy but if you are using it on a tripod, so what. Keivs are not well-built, period. I don't have experience with the M645 but remember that any SLR will have more moving parts (and more to go wrong) than a TLR. I would surf the KEH site, and see what is available. They offer a 14 day return I think. Spend a little more for quality, you won't regret it.

[colmmccarthy]

I use a 1000s for all of my MF shooting. Originally went through a C33 and a couple of C330 TLR's, but found an SLR was more versatile for the kind of stuff I do. Narrowed it down to either a M645 or a Bronica. I was familiar (and happy) with the Mamiya build and lens quality, so I went with a M645 1000s. I'm now on my second one, use it daily and it has never failed me (neither did the first). Wonderful cameras. The Bronica line is also excellent.

[douglas_green1]

I would suggest a radical approach - get the Mamiya 645, assuming it's really in full working order and you can be confident of that. Also, get a Yashica TLR as well, but get one of the ones without a meter - Either a Yashica D, or a Yashica Mat. Those Yashica TLR cameras can be gotten for well under $100 (Personally, I use a hand held meter or Sunny-16 guestimation most of the time with my TLRs anyways). I really love the ergonomics of TLRs for candid people shots, street scenics, etc. I own several TLRs, Including a Rolleiflex 2.8E, a Yashica Mat-124, and a Yashica D, and I would be happy to sell my Yashica D to a budding student for $60. Or you could get one on ebay for a similar amount - maybe even with nicer cosmetics than mine (but I'll guarantee that mine is fully working). Other inexpensive TLRs worth considering are those from Ricoh and Meopta, that also should be obtainable for well under $100 in good working order.

 

I agree that the accessory add-on lenses for the Yashica TLRs are not particularly good

 

If possible, get the Mamiya with a wider lens or a moderate telephoto lens depending on what you tend to prefer to shoot - that would make a good compliment to a TLR having a 75 or 80mm lens.

[dean_williams]

Geoff McAuliffe wrote:

 

"Also, the build quality of the Yashica is not there for the long haul."

 

I see this opinion about the Yashicas every now and then, but I often wonder where the "info" originates. Considering that the majority of Yashica Mat types are over 25 years, and many of those are over 40 years old and still going strong, it would seem that the "long haul" has been passed some time ago.

 

I'll tell you that I know better, and that I do not base my opinion on web gossip when I say the Yashicas are quite well built, and one in good order will last for a long time. I've serviced scores of them. They are a quality machine.

 

Many I've serviced came from school photo depts. They see abuse that would horrify a private owner, but a simple CLA will put them back in the pink.

 

They're made to last, alright.

[pavelp]

Gabriel, are you aware that 80mm lens on 6x6 will give you field of view close to 50mm lens on 35mm format? 80mm lens is generally too wide for portraits in MF format. Anything from 135mm to 180mm is a typical focal length for portraits in 645 and 66 formats.

 

As for the difference between Yashinon and Sekor optics, I'd expect the Sekors travel a little better. I'm not sure about this, but I think you can find 645 Sekors with multicoating and I suspect the Yashica will be singlecoated only (I may be wrong). Yashinon is a typical 4 element Tessar design, Mamiya lenses have more elements and use more advanced optical formulas (but it may not be make-it-break-it difference).

[lb-]

"80mm lens is generally too wide for portraits in MF format"

 

http://www.pyke-eye.com/

 

I think he'd disagree.

 

Garbriel get the 124. The yashinon lens is great. dump the wide and tele attachments,

they suck. Get a set of rolleinar close up filters and a light meter and you'll be ready to

rock.

[gabriel_p.]

Thank you all very much for your inputs, they are of great help. And I just found today a hasselblad 500cm with the 80mm planar for sale too, but the price is pretty spicy for me, i'd have to sell my Olympus Om Zuiko telezoom 65-200 to get it. I won't ask you about hassy image quality, though! :)

But anyways, it would be too much for me, so that's just for the record.

 

I'll go inspect the M645 very carefully and maybe put a roll of film through it and if it's ok, i think that would be the choice, although the yashica is simply superb. But I study cinematography so i figure the 645 format would be closer to the ratios i'm used to see the world in.

 

I'll let you know of my final purchase.

 

Thank you all, again!

[andyandrews34photo.net]

Gabriel,

I've owned and operated the cameras you mention (with the exception of the Kiev) and there is no comparison between ANY twin-lens reflex and the single-lens reflex Mamiya 645 series. First of all, you are looking through the taking lens and what you see is what you get. TLRs (without a bulky and heavy pentaprism) reverse the image right-to-left. The 645 offers superb optics of the most modern formulae and multi-coated, too. They range from fisheyes to major telephotos and allow you to cover anything photographic. They are now very affordable, since the Age of Digital Delusion is upon us and will hold their resale value. The film lies flatter in the gate in the 645 than in the Yashica. 220 backs are available, which hold film THE FLATTEST OF ALL roll film cameras, according to Carl Zeiss research and my own experience. You also get twice as many shots per roll. Portraits are best shot at twice the normal focal length. That would be 150mm for the 6x6 format. The Yashicamat limits you to waist-up or full-length portaits. Tight head shots are not optimally taken that close with a normal lens. The 645 will work much, much faster than a TLR with through the lens viewing and metering. film transport is faster,too. The customer's impression of you as a serious photographer will be enhanced when you use professional equipment. You will be more confident when you are not limited by your tools and that will show up in the quality of your work. The old, old saying that, "It's not the equipment, it's the photographer." couldn't be farther from the truth. Photography is the most technical of all the arts. That is why the top photographers invest in the best equipment. It is not to impress the client as much as to simplify operation and achieve top results.

[e_b7]

I have the Yashica and a Hasselblad. The 80mm focal length limits you to waist-up portraits. If you get closer, the face will look distorted. You can always crop though, and the image will still be sharp. I like the square format because you don't have to rack a large camera over to get vertical shots. You handle that in the lab. Anyway, if you really are doing lots of headshots, you need a portrait lens, of say, 150mm. Don't worry about optical quality. All the camera systems you mentioned (don't know about Kiev) will give you that. Think correct focal length for intended use (you know more than I).