Alien Bees and White Lightning same company?

[cris_watk]

I have absolutely no photography experience other than taking a

whole lot of pictures and getting great feedback on them. I own a

Nikon D70 and with all the great feedback I'm considering getting

lighting for a studio since I seem to excell with portraits.

Here are some examples of my humble work at the end.

I only have natural lighting right now to use and I'm hoping I can

step it up a notch and charge for my portraits if I get my lights...

I've heard great things about White Lightning and Alien Bees but

have recently discovered they are made by the same company...WHAT IS

THE DIFFERENCE? Which is better?<div></div>

[jmf]

Both are owned by Paul Buff. The AB's are their value line. The WL's are generally built to take more physical abuse, probably more heavy duty electronics inside. Thw W/L's offer higher power options.

[gluteal cleft]

Your work seems good enough to charge for right now, you'll love working with the strobes. After engineering the White Lightnings, Paul realized that he could do things differently in his next set - using some electronics magic to get rid of the bulky (and heavy) transformer, and step the mains voltage up with lightweight componants, and thus were born the Alien Bees.

 

Overall, the Bees are a terrific value - probably the best value out there. I don't have any, but I've borrowed some that were used, abused, and rented out for a few years, and they worked just fine.

 

steve

[mark_kolanowski]

Cris, I've been using Paul C. Buff units since the Mid 1980s when the WL 5000 and 10000 appeared. Great company to deal with ! The current WL / AB lines have alot to offer. One is that almost every accesory can be mixed or matched with the other. ( one exception is the synch cord). I like the X - 1600/3200 units for the power, brighter model lamps,power reduction range,build quality.I tend to use these for bigger groups and commercial shoots and as a main in my camera room. The AB's are great to travel with on smaller portrait jobs as I can pack 3-4 units in a small case and get away with lighter weight stands etc. In the studio they make great accent/hair/background lights that are lightweight on booms and are easy to hide. I also might add the portable Vagabond battery system is compatible with both lines and works well. Hope this info helps. Mark<div></div>

[dennisprice]

Here are some of the key differences comparing WL to AB. WL has:

 

broader output range (7-stop vs 5-stop); independent variable control of modeling light; max 150W vs 100W modeling lamp; 1/4 phone vs 1/8 mini sync plug; heftier attachment fingers and stronger clamping lever; metal stand mount vs plastic; more solid apparent build quality; 5yr vs 2yr warranty; comes with carrying case as standard.

 

If any or all of the above is important to you, then I guess you could say the WLs are "better" - if not, the ABs will do just fine.

[cris_watk]

Thanks eveybody for your responses. I have no technical experience with lights whatsoever so I don't know what is important to me and what isn't at this point. That is what scares me the most. But I'm so ready to learn!!! I'm so excited to get started.

[mikecat]

Good summary Dennis. One small correction, though. WL's have a 250W quartz modeling light, while the AB's come with a 100W modeling light (std household bulb). However, the AB's are rated by the manufacturer to go up to 150W - Philips makes a quartz bulb on a standard household base that screws in. I've had three AB's (two B1600's and one B800) for a couple of years now and I'm very happy with them. Both are a good value for the money. Paul Buff customer service is excellent.

 

The AB's are a good way to get into studio lighting without spending an excessive amount and will probably serve you well for a good long time while you establish a business. If you wind up turning this into a full time career, then you can always re-evaluate your lighting needs in the future. If you wind up upgrading to or adding either WL monolights or Balcar pack and head units, all your AB accessories will fit without change. If you change away from any of these products, then you can still sell your AB's and get a decent value for them.

 

Before buying anything, you should evaluate what type of shooting you will be doing mostly and what lighting requirements you will have independent of any brand that you have heard of. For example, if most of your shooting will be portraiture in your studio, or on location in other people's homes, then a moderate set of monolights like the AB's or WL's would be good. If you plan on doing a lot of event or wedding photography, then you are probably going to want to look more seriously at a battery powered system such as those from Lumedyne, Quantum or Norman.

 

If you are located near a good pro store, I would also recommend getting a good "cookbook" style lighting book and then renting a few monolights over a weekend to try them out and get a feel for what you like / don't like. Most places that rent will also be willing to get you started with some instructions and tips if you tell them what you are up to. If you rent over the weekend, or even better over a long holiday weekend, most rental places will only charge you the day rate for the rental - it's a good way to stretch the rental a bit further. You'll probably spend $100 to do this with 3 lights, stands, umbrellas and maybe a softbox. But, think of it as an investment.

[rdkirk]

When I asked the question of the tech folks at Paul C Buff, I was told this:

 

The basic circuitry of WL and AB is the same. When designing AB, they did, in fact, devise a clever system of cascading multipliers to do away with the heavy and costly switching power supply and transformers of conventional electronic flash units. The current WL series is actually the design "child" of AlienBees...beefed up for heavier-duty use. Here is a site where a user disassemble an AB and commented on the circuitry: davidweikel.com/E20_Page/alienbees/bees.shtml

 

The difference is that they have spread the circuitry from two boards in the AB to four boards in the WL. They also added a temperature-controlled fan (the AB fan is constant-on), and an overheat alarm. My speculation is that these differences combine to allow the 250-watt modeling lamp under all conditions. The AB ships with a 100 watt bulb, but it can be replaced with a 150 watt bulb (people use the popular Sylvania Halogena from home stores); according to the Paul C Buff techs (and also on the website), the AB can also use a 250-watt bulb, but ONLY in situations that give it a free flow of air--umbrellas, yes; softboxes, no.

 

Structurally, the WL's aluminum case means the reflector mount is screwed into metal rather than Lexan. The WL also has a heavy-duty secondary lever lock to supplement the spring-lock on the reflector mount. These two characteristics mean the WL can support much heavier light modifiers (although the AB mount is no wimp--it will hold practically anything anyone would want to lug on location). The stand mount on the WL is also all-metal to go along with that heavy-duty weight-bearing capability.

 

It would be hard to determine which has more impact resistance. The Lexan is tough enough that a fall capable of breaking it will probably have already jarred something loose inside any monolight. Either will stand up to a fall from the typical toppling lightstand.

 

I look at the two in terms of usage. While Paul C Buff doesn't advertise them as such, the AB is optimized for on-location portrait use. Where differences exist between AB and WL, it's almost always in the direction of lighter weight and compactness for AB compared to operational toughness for WL. Even the smaller modeling lights for the AB actually become a benefit if you do a lot of work in residences where the circuit capacity in a client's living might be questionable.

 

There are two ways to waste money buying studio electronic flash. One way is to buy units that are so cheap that they are unreliable for any level of professional use, even as backup units. The other way is to buy something so expensive that it breaks your bank--but doesn't provide the specific characteristics YOU want and need.

 

The nice thing about ABs and WLs is that they are both inexpensive and reliable. They won't break your bank, so you can work with them initially to discover what features you really want, and then buy something else if necessary. They're reliable enough that you can stay with them for professional work, or continue to use them as back-ups or supplemental lights if you get something else.

[yog_sothoth]

One thing to beware of is that both AB and WL state deceptive "effective" power levels for their lights. The AB "800" light is a 320 ws light and has a guide number on par with other low-end 300 ws lights. If you think you are getting an 800 ws light for that price, look out.

 

I am having a lot of fun with an inexpensive Smith Victor kit. The new 300ix monolights are very nice.

[dennisprice]

Cris, see the following quote extracted from:

 

http://www.white-lightning.com/specs.html

 

Pay particular notice to the last line. I maintain that this is more than adequate disclosure and truth in advertising, and that the Paul Buff company makes publicly and easily available a lot more detailed specifications about their units, including guide numbers, testing methods, etc than many other manufacturers are willing to openly share. I know Stephen disagrees. Any potential buyer ultimately needs to make their own choice.

 

"Quantity of electrical energy is measured in Wattseconds, also known as Joules. This rating defines the amount of electrical power discharged with each flash. While the actual amount of light produced for a given number of wattseconds varies, depending on the unit's design, the term provides a reasonable guide to comparative light output, as long as real/true wattseconds are specified. In the conversion of Watts to Lumens, or Wattseconds to Lumenseconds, the efficacy of the system determines how much light will result from a given number of wattseconds. The poor efficiency in this conversion by manufactures has given rise to the term Effective Wattseconds. If one flash system converts 400 Wattseconds of energy into 16,000 Lumenseconds of light, and another flash system converts 800 Wattseconds of energy into 16,000 Lumenseconds of light, then the first system could claim to have "800 Effective Wattseconds" as it is effectively producing the same amount of light as a system starting with 800 True Wattseconds. The Effective Wattseconds rating, however, is rather arbitrary and cannot be easily proven true or untrue, as it is merely used as a basis for inflated comparison of different flash systems."

[cris_watk]

I keep learning! And I can't tell you how valuable this is to me. Keep the comments coming! I am excited to rent a set of lights so I can practice and I just got a job to shoot engagement photos! WOOHOO...I'm so ready to start doing this for real!

If I can afford it...should I but the deluxe studio set up or keep it simple with just three lights? Is there an advantage to having it all at one time...even if I'm a beginner?

[michael_spencer3]

Chris,

 

All good advice above, but here is one more thing to think about since you say you are a beginner in this area: you need to think carefully about the dimensions of your proposed studio area.

 

If you are intending to use a smaller, more confined space then you will find smaller, lighter equipment a boon. I use my AB 800's in typical living room spaces (i.e. low ceilings) and hardly ever get them near full power. A studio with higher ceilings and walls that are farther away would be nice, and would allow for larger equipment such as the larger soft boxes. In my situation, a medium softbox is the max that will fit in my rooms and so I have to live with them.

 

Outdoors, the situation is a little different -- your main limitation will be how to lug the stuff to where you will want to use it. Sometimes you can drive right up to your location; othertimes you may have to pack the equipment in a ways. If you have enough assistants don't worry, but if you are trying to move this yourself think light weight.

 

Happy shooting,

 

Mike S

[dennisprice]

"...should I but [get?] the deluxe studio set up or keep it simple with just three lights? Is there an advantage to having it all at one time...even if I'm a beginner?..."

 

Cris, no doubt you will probably get diffent advice on this from different people, but my opinion is that you may want to consider starting with just ONE light with a softbox or umbrella, and use a reflector for fill.

 

Once you become comfortable with a one-light setup, which will give results very similar to your excellent natural light shots, you can add another light or two for hair and/or background, along with other modifiers like softboxes, barndoors, honeycomb grids, etc which will allow you more control.

 

Whichever way you decide to go, remember that while there are some general guidelines in lighting setup, there are no rules. Find a cooperative portrait subject and shoot away! The more you experiment, the more you will learn.

[crawfordphoto]

Cris,

<BR><BR>

I think your portraits look great! I just wanted to mention that Ed and I had a chance to interview Paul Buff on our LightSource podcast a few months ago. He talked at length about the difference in his lighting lines. If you want to hear it from Paul himself, you can get the audio from the show here:

<BR><BR>

<A HREF="http://www.studiolighting.net/studio-photography-podcast-lightsource-episode-1/">http://www.studiolighting.net/studio-photography-podcast-lightsource-episode-1/</A>

<BR><BR>

Good luck with your studio!! Keep up the great work.

-Bill Crawford

studiolighting.net

[jonathan_brewer1]

The financially challenged/broke photographers/'very careful with a nickel' folks which included myself when I got my first strobe owe a debt of gratitude to Paul C Buff, 'back in the day', many of the big name strobe outfits expected you to 'pay through the nose' for their gear, and weren't too understanding regarding a tight budget.

 

White Lightning drove 'em crazy, and made some of them look bad, because here was somebody who could give you entryway into a world that before him was almost exclusively for photographers who were already making money. Some big name outfits bought WL units, took apart, because they insisted that 'these things shouldn't work', in an attempt to show everybody that WL unit were junk, and they couldn't do it, so Paul C Buff was providing a cost effective alternative and he did it without being GREEDY.

[mikeseb]

<i><strong>Paul C Buff was providing a cost effective alternative and he did it without

being GREEDY.</strong></i>

 

<p>I suspect what he was doing had little to do with greed, or its absence; it had to do

with seeing an opportunity to serve a heretofore underserved market (photographers on a

budget who needed quality lighting equipment); and with using his skill, talent,

perseverance, and personal capital to figure out how to do so at a profit, for his own

benefit and that of customers who could not previously afford first-rate lighting

equipment.</p>

 

<p> I don't imagine that the respondent intended to bash capitalism, and this is not

meant as a personal attack, but rather as an expression of frustration at today's norm of

casual, almost thoughtless equating of greed and profit. Charging photographers what the

traffic will bear is not greedy, any more than it was noble or righteous for Mr Buff to

serve--at a profit--customers with thinner bankrolls. In both cases, sellers and buyers

entered the transaction willingly. Indeed, the relatively high prices--and presumably,

profits--earned by the big-dollar light manufacturers were what attracted competitors like

Mr Buff, to everyone's benefit in the end.</p>

 

<p>End of rant. Happy New Year to all.</p>

[jonathan_brewer1]

I disagree, and I think you're mis-characterizing what I'm suggesting, I don't equate greed with the desire to make a profit, not then(in the early 80's), and not now, there was, and there is now, over and above the desire to make a profit, EXTREME GREED.

 

During the mid-eighties, I attempted to work out a deal to purchase one of the 'big name' manufacturers monolights, just one mind you, because they were a fortune, they laughed at me and said they didn't do deals and said(I'll never forget this), 'come back when you've saved their pennies'.

 

The original WL Ultras were in the same ballpark performance wise as the overpriced monolights from the other manufacturer I'm talking about, and it did make them look bad, and Paul C Buff did FORCE these folks to restructure their prices.

 

Did you ever get any work done from Steve Grimes before he died? This guy could've and probably should've charged more for the work he did ,but didn't, he didn't even charge what the market would bare for his prototype and machine work, and would bill you after sending your gear back to you. Some people incredibly, stiffed him for work, I once sent him a Toyo AII I purchased and asked him to examine the camera, after doing that, I asked him for a bill, he said 'forget it', I was a regular customer and that was that.

 

Besided using Steve Grimes, I use a machine shop here locally in L.A. called 'Turner Precision', run by the father w/his sons, I approached him with some work to modify some of my strobe gear, I'd been quoted xxxx-xxx for the job from approx. 7 other machine shops, most of which didn't want to do the job.

 

The folks at Turner were very busy, but they were also people oriented folks, I explained that I was a photographer and what I needed done, they charged me less than a $100.00 for the modification where I had been quoted as much as $1100.00 for the job.

 

You're a photographer in the early '80s and you want to use strobes, you want to start a portrait business, the cheapest monolight system from the folks I mentioned were SEVERAL thousand dollars, now you have the choice paying through the nose, and you can say nobody put a gun to your head to purchase that gear, and if that's your only alternative, then I guess you can use a flashlight, but there were always people who came along who gave you that other alternative.

 

There were numerous people I've dealt with over the years who performed a service for me, who didn't demand the most they could get for the service rendered,.......when they performed a service, and it was time to pay the bill, many times I got, 'forget it', 'catch you the next time around', 'this is on me', and for jobs costing quite a bit of money,..............there are people who people who don't always demand what the market will bear when they do business, they're also folks that will demand to the last penny whatever they can get, and there have been and always will be the ruthless and the greedy, the names used to be Rockefeller and Carnegie then, they're different folks now with hearts just as black.

[jonathan_brewer1]

Years ago, I loaded up w-----s NT on my computer, and then my computer wouldn't work and crashed before I could 'boot' it up, EVERY TIME, I call m-------- up, and they demand $85.00 to fix the problem over the phone,...................'you want me to pay you to fix your OS, which doesn't work in the first place?'........................and of course they said that they weren't about to waste time discussing it, as they were extremely busy, hanging up on me, THAT'S GREED.

[joel_provinsal]

<i>I attempted to work out a deal to purchase one of the 'big name' manufacturers monolights, just one mind you, because they were a fortune, they laughed at me and said they didn't do deals and said(I'll never forget this), 'come back when you've saved their pennies'.</i><br><br>

 

That is a single sales-person that is not interested in your business. They are no more obligated to sell to you then you are to make a purchase. If they sell a product at a price you deem acceptable for the rewards recieved from the purchase of the goods, then you are free to give them your business. As mentioned Mr. Buff has capitalized on this companies exclusionary business model so that he can profit from those of us with smaller budgets. Mr. Buff isn't being alturistic, he is bringing a quality product to market at an affordable price in an effort to make profit and enrich himself and his employees. By focusing on the untapped market for quality professional grade studio lights he has allowed us to profit as well. Simple economics.

 

We just purchased the AB B800 "DigiBee" outfit (upgraded from the B400s that come standard with the package) and have really enjoyed them so far. We typically use out livingroom which is 19x14 and I find that they provide a nice amount of lighting. One thing I hadn't considered was the damn rafters. They were showing up in all of the photos as a weird catchlight. We put a black sheet on the cieling to solve it temporarily, but are considering a nice gray for the ceiling.

 

The lights are great,the service is outstanding, and the price is just right.<div></div>

[claytonwallace]

Cris,

 

Thought I'd post my 2 cents here as it may help you. It sounds like you are where I was not so long ago. Before purchasing any equipment you need to develop a business plan if you haven't done so already. I generally hate that type of planning but it was the best thing I could have done. Plus, it made my wife much, much more at peace with the whole thing...

 

I did tons of research on various lighting systems; it can be very overwhelming, I know. Here is the 'short' on what I did. I bought Alien Bees 800s (3), the octabox and two shoot through umbrellas as well as the heavier stands and assorted accessories. As I shoot on location almost exclusively, I also purchased the vagabond battery, which is crazy expensive and heavy but equally awesome. I got backgrounds and stands from amvona.com via their ebay auctions (equipment from them is surprisingly good quality) though backgrounds can differ from online images. I purchased lots of other equpment at the same time as well, and it is important to sit down and count the costs before starting down this very expensive (but rewarding) road. Do you own a light meter? Sandbags? Essential when shooting groups and kids (I do lots of both). Stools? Props? The list goes on. If you'd like me to itemize my current equipment further, feel free to contact me directly through my website. I'd do pretty much the same all over again. Love my alien bees, but the equipment is not the thing. It is how you learn to use it, to really master it that matters. Someone else suggested getting one light and using a reflector. If budget is tight do it. You can get fabulous image from using just one light when used properly. As far as learning/techniques for lighting, I've recently been pouring though Master Lighting Guide for Portrait Photographers by Christopher Gray (best investment I've made so far) as well as Profitable Portraits by Jeff Smith. I'm not associated with either of these guys, they are just by far the best books I've purchased for lighing and the business side of photography, respectively.

 

As far as your one question as to the advantages of purchasing more than one light at once, other than the obvious one of having more options right off the bat, alienbees.com offers a discount on accessories and the discount percentage increases according to number of lights in your shopping cart. Weigh that with your other budgetary concerns I suppose. Hope this helps. I've by no means "arrived" and will never, ever stop learning. What great fun to be living our passions!

 

Clayton

[cris_watk]

Hey Clayton, what is your website...I would like to contact you and get that list and see your work!

thanks for the input. It was very valuable to me.

[b. c.]

Cris, if you click on Clayton's name at the start of his post, it will take you to his personal

information page, where he lists his personal home page, http://www.claytonwallace.com/.

[cris_watk]

ah yes...a newbie no longer :)

[claytonwallace]

Here is a pretty comprehensive list of the equipment I'm currently using. I'm always selling and buying something, but this is a shapshot of where I'm at right now:

 

I do a variety of types of photography (weddings, portraits, events, sports, nature...), so a few pieces may look out of context for a portrait business. Ok, here goes:

 

Canon 10d digital slr (now saving for 5d)

Canon 28-135 IS lens

Sigma 15-30mm wide angle lens

Canon 100-400L IS lens

Slik tripod

Canon 580ex Flash

Nature Trekker Photo backpack (Now that I shoot less nature I just have my hands free when lugging lots of equipment)

Canon Shutter release cable

Stroboframe flash bracket

Canon Flash Cable

Flash reflector (stick with velcro to flash to bounce flash in indirect manner)

Lens dust brush (I found a nifty one that retracts)

UV filters for all the lenses (protection)

Extra batteries for camera (BP-511's, I bought generic and they work great) and flash

Compact flash cards (I have two 1GB cards, one 2GB, and a few smaller stuff I don't even use except to transfer files or hold down paper).

Firewire Compact flash card reader (so worth the money) and a few USB readers (crap-slow).

A Mac, Dual 1.25 G4 with two extra harddrives (one 250, one 80), dvd and cd burners, dual monitors (pretty generic monitors, but properly calibrated...the most important thing).

Photoshop CS2 with a few plugins not worth mentioning

iview Media Pro 2.5 (managing albums...etc).

jview (the coolest little program for quickly sifting through, ie deleting, photos from a recent shoot.

Dreamweaver MX 2004 for creating/managing my website quickly and effeciently

An Epson 2200 printer for small or urgent runs, my print lab does most of the printing.

A paper cutter (the handle kind, the rolling kind are junk and can't cut matteboard).

An Epson PictureMate printer for printing on location (mostly a promotional thing).

 

Lighting and such: (mostly the Intergalactic Package from Alienbees)

 

3 AlienBees B800 Flash Units

3 CB1 Single Light Carrying Bags

1 V300 Vagabond Portable Power System

2 LS3900 13-foot Heavy Duty Light Stands

1 LS1100 Backlight Stand

1 HG20 20 degree Honeycomb Grid

2 U48TWB 48-inch Translucent White �Shoot-Thru� Umbrella (this I changed from their package)

1 LSB48 48-inch Light Stand Carrying Bag

1 Large Octabox (OB47): 47-inch outer diameter (added to package)

 

Background stands I got from Amvona.com (off Ebay though) as well as a couple of backgrounds, which I've dyed and painted myself.

Sandbags (4, I ordered empty and filled with gravel from Home Depot...after I washed in bleach water to kill bugs etc...) Sewing them by hand with that thick needle and thread is something I NEVER want to do again!

 

I got a large wheeled toolbox from HomeDepot with a retractable handle to hold my lights and lots of little extras as I shoot on location frequently (for bungie cords, clamps, fastners, gaffer tape etc, extension cord and powerstrip...).

 

Other misc stuff: A reflector, extra flash (vivitar 285), some grad ND filters, polarizer, compact flash card wallet, stools, props...

 

All equipment is paid for. As I mentioned above, first create a business plan that is sound, then live your passion! Guideline for me is I don't buy it until I actually need it (my wife might disagree, but she isn't reading this :) For example, I've rather outgrown my 10D and need increased resolution often enough now that I'm saving for the 5D. But for 80% of my work the 10D works great. And I'll keep it for backup and put another 60,000 shots on it. (yes, I had to replace the shutter due to that stupid error 99/"your shutter is dying" message).

 

Best wishes.

 

Clayton Wallace -

weddings, portraits, sports