Used MF system suggestions.

[wenger]

I'm in the market for a medium format system. I would like to keep

my initial investment under $1000 (the more under the better). Based

on the following criteria can anyone make any recommendations as to

what type of system I should pursue?

 

I am an amateur photographer who shoots mostly abstract/fine art

type images, but I dabble in a little of everything. I am especially

interested in a camera that offers an interchangeable back so that I

can have several backs loaded with various film types (including

Polaroid). I have a slight preference to the 6X6 format, however am

not adverse to forsaking that for convenience/portability and/or

affordability. So far the Mamiya 645 Pros have found their way to

the top of my list. For the $1000 I am hoping to purchase a body, a

couple lenses, and a couple backs at least. I've been looking at

Ebay.com KEH.com and Photogon.com, are there any other recommended

resources?

 

Thanks in advance.

[david_m]

If you have a preference for 6x6, why is a 6x4.5 camera top of your list? I would go with a 6x6 camera that can take either 6x6 or 6x4.5 backs. A Bronica or Kowa comes to mind. The Kowa will be cheaper but may be reliable and harder to find the backs (especially the Polaroid back).

[christopher hansen]

When planning the move to MF. don't forget all the other costs. They add up quickly. To

get the benefit of the larger film format, you need a good scanner. The scanner will make

big files, so you need a powerful MAC or PC. Then you need photoshop to adjust your

images before printing. Film and processing are not cheap either. I usually shoot E

-6 6x7s and it works out to about 85 cents everytime I press the shutter release.

 

Of course, if you already have this stuff or you plan to shoot B&W and process yourself

then maybe you can cut the costs down.

 

I use and recommend a Mamiya 7. You can get one used with an 80mm lens for about

$1200. However, it sounds like you are more interested in an SLR. Used Hasselblads look

really cheap now. Buy something with a good lens. That makes all the difference.

 

I'd also recommend KEH.

 

Good luck. MF is fun.

[simon_platt1]

Thomas

 

I have always found the Bronica range to be superb. The lenses are good qualiy, the cameras are reliable and at the moment there are lots available used.

 

The ETRSi would give you 6*4.5 negatives. I have had mine for 15 years. If you do buy one get the speedgrip or winder as these make the camera much more conmfortable to hold and use. The slightly older version of the winder is the best one as that takes regular AA batteries. When they updated the winder it was modified to take photo lithium batteries which are smaller but harder to find.

 

If you want 6x6 then go for a SQ model, there have been a number of versions the most recent being SQAi which has a TTL flash sensor and the SQAb which was a cut down version which had no flash sensor and could not take a metered prism.

 

The big advantage for me of Bronica over Mamiya is that all the lenses have leaf shutters so flash sync is at all speeds of the shutter

 

Simon

[stwrtertbsratbs5]

I have a Mamiya 645 Pro TL and several lenses, all purchased from KEH. It's an excellent camera and additional lenses are inexpesive.

 

Don't worry about scanning - optical printing still works just fine.

 

Robert

[andy m.]

<i>abstract/fine art type images</i><p>

 

At what distance? If you want close foucus then the Mamiya 7, though a great camera, won't be the best choice.<p>

 

I suggest a used Bronica SQ' since I guess that this will give good versatility whilst offering great lenses that are cheaper than some other systems (e.g. Hasselblad). There seem to be lots on the market at the moment as some wedding photogs offload their MF gear for digital.

[terry_evans3]

Thomas,

 

You will enjoy medium format. My first mf camera was a Mamiya 645, then an RB Pro SD, and finally a Hasselblad 501 CM. I purchased both the RB and Hasselblad on E-Bay. Sold the RB on E-Bay and purchased the Hasselblad within the last few weeks.

 

First of all, I would prioritize your needs (wants) in case your budget will not cover them all at once. Personally, I would look at cameras in mint condition. That would be more important to me than the exact model. I like most all mf cameras and prefer manual. Making a decision on the format might help you at this point. When I bought the RB, I wanted the larger 6x7 format. With the Hasselblad, I wanted the lenses and quality build. Owning your first mf will help you decide what you need or want later.

 

With $1,000.00, I would go straight to Mamiya on E-Bay. I just looked and you can buy a nice system within your budget. If you don't mind the size or manual, an RB67 is really a neat camera. Also, there are plenty of 645s on the market. When I bought my Hasselblad system, I would only look at Buy It Now auctions. I would make an offer of 75% of what they wanted. In most cases, they agreed.

 

Have fun shopping and let us know what you ended up getting.

 

Terry

[wenger]

Thanks for all of the responses so far. <br><br><strong>David</strong> - the reason the Mamiya topped the list so far was that it seemed I could find good systems within my price range as Terry has pointed out. <br><br><strong>Christopher</strong> - the ancillary costs did come to mind (especially the film scanner) but I do process my own B&W and in fact have a wet room. I wouldn't mind being forced into shooting more B&W, but would still like to have a back loaded with some Velvia or something for when the situation dictated it. I will still be keeping my 35mm setup also. <br><br><strong>Simon</strong> - I'll have to check out Bronica more carefully. One of the problems I've had is that all of the different models (in all makes) are confusing. Mamiya's website has helped me understand what they offer (another reason I've leaned their direction - I understand their products better at this point). What Bronica would give me the 6X6 option as well as 645? How do I determine which lenses go with which system (all models)? Does anyone know of a chart with such information?<br><br><strong>Robert</strong> - thank you, optical printing is the BEST!<br><br><strong>Andy</strong> - Thank you. The focal range issue hadn't really come to mind and it is somewhat important to me. As I indicated however, I will be keeping my 35mm setup, so when the need calls, I can always (provided I have it with me) bounce to 35mm. <strong><br><br>Terry</strong> - I am a bit of a pack rat, and it is unlikely that I would ever sell the camera, especially based on the rate at which these will likely drop in value in the coming years (look at what you can buy a used Nikon F5 for on Ebay these days). So my strategy would be to look for the best value and not worry about superficial wear and tear on the body. If I'm not mistaken, most of these cameras are work horses. As long as the glass is clean and the functionality is there I'm happy. Do you see any pitfalls with this strategy? <br><br><strong>All</Strong> - thank you for your swift responses! I've been with Photo.net for a few years and was a patron until recently. I've become frustrated with just how difficult it is to get thoughtful critiques on images (even when actively critiquing others). Maybe in light of your responses I'll have to re-up.

[bueh]

If you want 645, why not just buy TWO old Mamiya M645 bodies instead of one much more expensive Pro? A second body is less expensive than the overpriced backs.<p>

And you really have to decide which features, format and how much automation you want. For $1000 you can get a lot of MF systems today (except for Hasselblad, Mamiya 6/7 rangefinders and the later Rollei SLRs).

[wenger]

The interchangeable back feature is pretty important to me. While I appreciate your idea of multiple systems, I'm much more likely to carry around 1 camera with 2-3 backs than I am 2-3 MF cameras. Also the Polaroid feature is pretty important to me.

<br><br>

So here's a quick priority list:<br>

Priced within my range<br>

Quality (yet affordable) glass<br>

Quality (yet affordable) body<br>

Multiple backs<br>

Polaroid back<br>

Portablility<br>

6X6 format<br>

Availability of accessories (lenses)<br>

Close focus<br>

<br>

The first five I'm pretty firm on.

[paul_de_angelis2]

Hi Thomas,

 

I would recommend looking seriously at some of the websites out there specifically dedicated to medium format cameras. Danny Gonzales' site is a good start. "Medium format on a budget," too. Buying MF is a lot different than 35 mm where most SLR's are pretty much the same, most rangefinders the same, etc. I like TLR's, others hate them. YOu get the idea. Try and get your hands on as many as you can fondle at your local camera shop. Maybe even splurge and rent one that you are thinking of for a day and run a few rolls through it.

 

Everyone has their own opinion about these things and it's really up to you to decide. It's very personal :-)

 

Certain questions only you can answer. Personally, I'd forgo the 6 x 4.5 and go for the 6 x 6. I love the square negs and they look more "arty" if you are into the fine art thing. Will you be hand-holding or using a tripod? Are you sure that you need more lenses? I only have one (well, two) on each of my TLRs and 90% of the time that is more than sufficient. The other 10% forces me to be more creative and the end result is often better.

 

In short, consider carefully and choose wisely. Posting your question was a good move. I wish you the best of luck. You won't regret moving up, believe me.

 

Yours,

 

Paul

[wenger]

The artsy look of the square negative is basically the primary factor of the 6X6. I think you convinced me that I should move that up on my priority list.

<br><br>Your point regarding the need for multiple lenses is also well received. I have been thinking from a 35mm standpoint and I guess I need to shake that ideology. I'm not affraid to think outside the box (or in the case of 6X6 with a fixed length lens forcing myself to think inside the box). Maybe I should knock down my price level substantially and play with an older cheaper camera for a while and see where it takes me.

<br><br><i>In short, consider carefully and choose wisely</i> - conjurs thoughts of Indiana Jones and the quest for the holy grail - "<i>he chose... poorly.</i>" - I'd hate to end up like that guy...<br>

[stwrtertbsratbs5]

I used to own a Minolta Autocord - it's an inexpensive but excellent TLR that produces 6x6 images. I sold it, though, as one lens was too limiting and I found the WLF more difficult to use than a prism finder (I shot 35mm SLR's for 20 years, though). Also, I found myself often cropping to a rectangle. Just personal preference, though. Some people prefer square.

 

Robert

[jonsjons]

i would also suggest looking at the bronica SQ series. i have a bronca GS-1 and love it.....the design is basically the same as the SQ, but the format is 6x7, so it's a little bigger, heavier, and more expensive. an SQ outfit would be almost as as good as a hasselblad system, but a LOT cheaper. this would leave you with a good amount of money with which to add more lenses, backs, a different finder, etc. and you could do 645 if you wanted to. i would just avoid the original SQ camera; the SQ-A and everything after it will have mirror lockup.

 

for more info, try looking at

 

http://tamron.com/bronica/sq_guide.asp

 

and

 

http://tamron.com/bronica/prod/sq.asp

[andy m.]

FWIW, I use an old Rolleiflex Automat and a Minolta Autocord for 120 film and find them both optically very good.

 

Just for illustration (though difficult to tell too much from an online scan) I will post a couple of images.<p>

 

The first image below was taken with the Minolta, the second with the Rollei.<p>

 

In US money, neither of thee cost more than 175USD. If you don't strongly need to change lenses, either would be worth considering as a robust cost effective camera.

 

Cheers, A<p>

<img src="http://d6d2h4gfvy8t8.cloudfront.net/3995303-lg.jpg"><p><p>

<img src="http://d6d2h4gfvy8t8.cloudfront.net/3995304-lg.jpg">

[david_henderson]

With your budget you could afford a good condition Bronica SQ-Ai (the latest/last incarnation of the 6x6 Bronica cameras) complete with 80mm standard PS series lens, waist level finder and back; togrther with a PS wide-angle or short telephoto and a spare back. It might even stretch to an unmetered prism and/or speedgrip too.

[bueh]

All these well-meant recommendations of TLRs overlook the fact that our young friend wants a system camera with removeable backs.<p>Thomas, you won't find the perfect MF camera system, especially not within your budget, so don't believe that you will make a poor choice with any product from a high-quality manufacturer. Most of us end up with several (or several dozen, <i>ahem</i>) cameras and learn to live with the advantages and shortcomings of each. Just buy one and see if it suits you; if not, you can always sell it again with little or no loss.<p>My money is on the RZ67 for serious photography, though building a system will probably exceed your budget at one point. But a starter kit of body, backs, WLF, 110mm lens and some accessories (including a incident light meter) is well within you budget. You can always buy inexpensive RB lenses if you cannot afford the modern Sekor Z's.

[wenger]

<strong>Robert</strong> - Thanks! The framing/cropping is part of why I'm looking for a flexible system.

<br><br><strong>Jonathan</strong> - Thanks for the links. They are very helpful. In fact, I'm now looking strongly at the Bronica systems. They seem to offer much of what I'm looking for.

<br><br><strong>Andy</strong> - Nice images. I just may pick up one of those at some point. I'm a bit of a collector myself.

<br><br><strong>David</strong> - Good idea! Looks like the Bronica SQ-AI may be a winner!

<br><br><strong>Bueh</strong> - Thanks for the peace of mind. All of this information has certainly been helpful and helped me get an idea of exactly what it is I want and what cameras will meet those criteria.

[tom_holum]

If you are considering medium format, you owe it to yourself to spend a few hours reading through the articles in Robert Monaghan's Medium Format Digest: http://www.medfmt.8k.com/mf/index.html It has a wealth of information on MF system cameras, and some very interesting articles on budget systems.

 

I recommend you pay particular attention to Monaughan's section on the classic Bronica focal-plane 6X6 cameras, the Bronica C, S, S2, and S2A. Three years ago, on eBay, I was able to buy an S2A, an additional 120/220 back, three Nikon lenses (the 50mm, 75mm, and 135mm) polaroid back, and close-up ring set for 1:1 macro, all for under $1,000. I suspect you could do much better than that today. Quite a few other items are available cheaply for theses cameras, including Nikon lenses from 40mm through 500mm, close focusing bellows, etc. Avoid the earlier models as they had some teething problems. But the S2A is a fine, robust 6X6 camera, and the Nikon lenses are really second to none. They are going for a song today. Good luck!

[wenger]

Great link with a wealth of information!! Too bad I can't just mount my existing Nikon lenses... it would make the decision a no-brainer!!

[wenger]

I bought this <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7575189520&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1">Bronica SQ-AI</a> ($630) on Ebay from Adorama. The price seemed right considering the condition and accessories included (120 back, motor grip, prism, 80mm PS lens). I'll stop back in once I've had a chance to use it. Thank you all for your help in this.

[kelly_flanigan1]

There are removeable backs for TLR's, you just dont change them to end of roll! :) My C3 Mamyia has 3 backs, sheet and plate with 3 holders, 120 and 220 roll, WL finder, poro-meter "prism", 180 and 105mm lenses. The used kit cost about 420 bucks a long time ago. <br><BR>Today there is so much Medium Format stuff being dumped; I sure would not jump the gun and get married to any system without dating one first. Avoid used MF backs from flaky sources.

[bueh]

Thomas, don't forget to buy a waist-level finder. Using a bright WLF with the magnifier for focusing is what medium format is all about in my humble opinion. You will understand what I mean. And I would rather use a good hand-held incident light meter than a bulky CdS prism (if that's the item). And I found out the hard way that motor grips and me don't work well together, I discovered with a M645 that the camera and the grip are awkward to hold. I got a pain in my hand after only a short while, because my fingers couldn't go around the grip all the way 'cause it is attached to the camera body on one side. True story.

 

Oh, and by the way, welcome to the club!

[paul_de_angelis2]

Hi Thomas,

 

As you can see, you really opened up a can of worms! There is no correct answer; it is a matter of preference, which is why it is suggested that you take your time and really know what you want/need before you buy. Of course, if you "choose wisely" (I admit, I sounded like Obi Wan Kanobi or someone like when when I wrote that!)then you will always be able to sell and up to something better as you needs change.

 

It's absolutely true that there is no one camera that will do everything for you. Personally, I sold my Nikon gear when I got a hold of MF. I simply have no need for it and don't regret that decision at all. I'd rather have an inexpensive 35mm point and shoot (or whatever) and a serious MF than vice versa, although my two Rolleis do everything I need in MF, so I will do something else with my money. Besides, I love the freedom of being able to walk around and shoot without the hassle of changing lenses, backs, and carrying a thousand accessories. It's a sort of minimalist photography that appeals greatly to me.

 

Keep surfing the sites recommended, they will help a lot.

 

Yours,

 

Paul

[wenger]

I plan to get a waist level finder (I've always liked the change in perspective you get by lowering the camera, I just don't bend nearly often enough). A Polaroid back, and some additional 120/220 backs. I have a nice Sekonic meter that I just got last Christmas. Thanks again.