Comparison of Ebony 45SU and RW45E

[stp]

I've been shooting landscapes with 35mm for 35 years, medium format for 10+

years, digital for 2 years, and now I'd like to get a real camera. Please help.

 

I'm trying to decide between the Ebony 45SU for $3800 and the RW45E for about

$2000. I expect to use lenses primarily from 110mm to 240mm, with the possibility

of adding 75/80 and 300, entirely for landscapes.

 

I don't want to start with an entry system and move up, if needed and as experience

might guide me; I'd rather take my best shot at getting a system that I'll stay with for

the next 10 years. I'd like to say that money is not a consideration, except the bank

is going to insist that I repay the loan somehow.

 

My questions:

 

1. Is the speed/convenience of a non-folding camera with asymmetric tilt/shift

(45SU) worth a significant difference in price? I know that's really a personal opinion,

but I'd like to hear yours.

 

2. Are the movements in the RW45 usually sufficient for landscapes (front: rise

45mm, fall 20mm, swing 20 degrees, base tilt 25 degrees, center tilt 30 degrees;

back: swing 10 degrees, base tilt 20 degrees, center tilt 20 degrees), or do the

additional movements of the 45SU (greater ranges, plus front and back shift) provide

significant benefit to landscape photography?

 

Any other comments or experiences you have that might help me to make a decision

would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

 

Steve Penland

[mlfly1]

I've had my RW45 about 2 1/2 months now and have used it pretty extensively. But, that's not much time yet. I have had considerable experience with other 4x5 cameras. So, IMO, I can tell you the RW 45 has sufficient movements for landscapes. In fact, my Toyo 45AX had sufficient movements for landscapes and the RW has more. Mine is the mahogony version. I chose it for the money, not for the wood. It is sturdy and looks great (although rustic compared to the Wista or even a Tachihara) I do like the Titanium better than bright brass and it seems to add to the solidity. The two things I like best are the solidity and the bellows. I use a 110, 180 & 300. All are easy with this camera. I've no doubt wider would work fine, probably down to 75 with ease but I don't "see" that wide.

 

It's very light - 3.5 lbs on my scale (caution - I think only the mahogony version is that light). On a still day, a 1228 works great. With some wind, the 1325 tames it. I carry it all in a Mini Trekker but it is probably a little small for all the necessary stuff.

 

On my wish list would be levels but I've solved that with a tripod head. The fall is a bit of a pain as you can easily drop the front standard enough so that the center axis tilt knobs and the base tilt knobs hit each other. If the lensboard weren't off centered low, this would be more of a problem. After some use, you do get used to it (sort of). That's it for complaints from me. I like the camera.

 

Mike

[stp]

Thanks Mike; I appreciate your thoughts. By the way, 1948 was a very good year (6/

17/48 for me).

[steve_hamley]

Steve,

 

My 2 cents is go with the mahogany RW45 and have them add the levels if you want them - they'll do that. Mahogany saves weight and money. I use a SV45U, and although I love the camera, the extra bellows and movements aren't used all that much. There are times when the shift is nice, maybe a shot or two a year. If you shoot small areas - semi macro - say areas less than 4x5 feet, the extra movements become more and more important.

 

I do like the asymmetric back movement, but the 45SU is larger than the folders when collapsed because it doesn't fold. So I don't know if it's really that much more convenient, pack space considered. If you go this route, might as well break the bank and get a 45SU with an extra inch of bed - they'll do this too allegedly. This would make longer lenses a bit more useful.

 

But you won't go wrong starting with an RW45 - a friend sold his used for the price of a new one.

 

Steve

[brian_ellis16]

"I'd rather take my best shot at getting a system that I'll stay with for the next 10 years."

 

Ten years ago when I bought my first large format camera (a 4x5 Linhof Technikardan) that was my thought too. Nine cameras later (five 4x5s, one 5x7, two 8x10s) I no longer think it's a good idea to spend a lot of time and money on a first LF camera.

 

Of the 4x5s I've owned, two have been Ebonys but neither was one of the models you're considering so I can't help you select between those two.I can, however, suggest that you rethink your 10 year premise. First, never having used a 4x5 camera before it's highly unlikely that you'll be able to pick a first camera that will also basically be your last, no matter how much money you spend. There's not a whole lot of operational difference between 35mm, medium format, and digital. LF is a whole different deal and it's very hard to know what things you'll like about your equipment and what you'll dislike without ever having used LF equipment before. Second, for the focal length lenses you use and the landscape work you plan to do a Wista, Tachihara, Zone VI, or Shen Hao will work perfectly for 10%-20% of the cost of the cameras you're considering. If you later find you really need the extra features a more expensive camera might have you can either keep the inexpensive first camera as a backup or sell it for about what you paid for it. Just my opinion of course but it's based on a lot of personal experience buying and selling LF cameras.

[paul_owen]

Hi Steve.I'm glad you're going along this route rather than the "get an old XXXXXXX and see how I get on". The RW is a superb camera - make sure you get a version with the universal bellows (whether you go with mahogany or ebony wood)- these will give you greater flexibility with shorter lenses. For the money you will NOT get a better 5x4 camera - it may be the cheapest Ebony but it is in no way an "entry-level" camera! The SU is, in my opinion, the ultimate wooden field camera - yes its expensive but you will never need another camera/upgrade ... simple as that!

[dan_v]

I moved up to 4x5 just over a year ago and spend a small fortune getting all what I thought was the necessary equipment. I really wanted an Ebony but for financial reasons I decided that I should learn on something cheaper so I got a Tachihara which has proved to be more than adequate so far. It's very light, is one of the least expensive 4x5s available and well suited for backpacking. And if I had to make an offering to St. Ansel by dropping a new 4x5 on the rocks, I'd rather sacrifice a Tachi instead of an Ebony. Even after I get my Ebony in the near future, I expect to keep the Tachi as a backup.

 

Unless you have deep pockets, considering that you are new to LF it may be better to "train" on a cheaper camera until you have enough experience to make a better-informed decision regarding which Ebony to get.

 

If you're determined to start with an Ebony, here's a thread on the LF.info forum that may be of interest: http://largeformatphotography.info/lfforum/topic/501349.html

[stp]

Dan, thanks for the link. Just when I thought I had read everything that had been

written....

[roger_hicks1]

Dear Steve,

 

I'm with Brian and Dan. I currently have about eight 5x4 inch cameras (consider what I do for a living -- www.rogerandfrances.com) and I must have owned two or three times that number, maybe even four times, over the last 30 years. That's apart from the ones I have reviewed...

 

NONE of them is perfect for everything, and besides, I now prefer 5x7 inch anyway. Buy almost anything except perhaps a Speed Graphic (woefully short on movements) and see what you really feel you are missing (more movement, lighter weight, bigger lens panel, more extension, extra rigidity, interchangeable bellows...). Then try to buy one camera that gives you all you want. I'd be so bold as to suggest that it ain't gonna be one camera: I use a Linhof Technikardan and Toho for 4x5 inch and Gandolfi for 5x7 inch.

 

Cheers,

 

Roger

[paul_owen]

Excellent advice - as usual. But the crux of this posting is the need to buy into a camera that will not mean/need an upgrade in a year or two. I would agree with Roger that one camera will not do "everything" but if you want just one camera, and not half a dozen then get an Ebony SU - it is (probably!)the best "all rounder" and if it can't do "it" then you probably wouldn't be shooting "it" anyway!

[emile_de_leon9]

Buy something used so you can learn and make mistakes on. Then if you really want to in a year.... buy your overpriced "wonder camera". But I'll bet that you will not take any better landscapes with the camera costing 5 x's as much. I'll even venture that you will grow fond of your socially inferior "beater model" and relish the idea of making beautiful photographs that were done with skill rather than a mink furry gizmo. I own 2 12x20's, a 90 year old Korona (my 1st) and a new "Vunderbar" 12x20 Wisner.Damed if I don't get better pics with the Korona, even though I work twice as hard to get them. Emile/www.deleon-ulf.com

[uk]

"I don't want to start with an entry system and move up, if needed and as experience

might guide me; I'd rather take my best shot at getting a system that I'll stay with for the

next 10 years. I'd like to say that money is not a consideration, except ...."

 

The information provided is all very good, but as Paul says you want to make a long term

decision now. The choices are different for all of us because of the depth of our pockets

and our enthusiasm and committment to the acivity.

 

Making the right decision on day one is the cheapest and least frustrating. I had three 4x5

cameras before the 45SU I now own and wish I'd gone straight to that in the first place.

The camera is a joy to use. My previous LF camera was a Linhof Tecknika V and although

there is a great following for this, I wouldn't give it house room now. I would rather stop

shooting LF.

 

The 45SU is not worth the extra purchase price over the other Ebony cameras, as it won't

produce better pictures, but it's nice to own and easy to use and will hold it's value equal

to the best of the rest.

 

If it 'encourages' you to shoot more frequently it's good value. My advice would be to buy

it because otherwise you'll always aspire to one, as you clearly want to be persuaded to

make that leap.

[tito sobrinho]

Today's photographers worry about camera movements when "shooting" landscapes...asymmetrical back standard movement, front horizontal as well as vertical rotation; degrees here and there, and so on. For 75 years, photographers had very few of those movements available when using their cameras.

 

The great landscape photographers of the 19th century din't have the luxury of having to worry about it. But, they produced wonderful pictures with their plate cameras, which had just front rise & fall and back tilt.

 

Carleton Watkins with Yosemite. Willian H. Jackson the first to photograph Yellowstone in 1876. Alexander Gardner together with Timothy O'Sullivan photographed the Civil War under the tutelage of Matthew Brady. Later on, T. O'Sullivan photographed the Canyon de Chelly.

 

Cheers, Tito.

[david_tolcher]

I initially had an RSW which has no rear tilt and short bellows. I have upgraded to the RW45E and find it excellent. The rear tilt is OK for what I do (landscapes) and bellows long enough for me to use a 300mm lens. Its very easy with 90mm and 200mm lenses. Only drawback is that even with a recessed panel a 65mm is not easily usable and I would venture to suggest not worth the hassle.

Its personal but having had a non folder the folder feels less vunerable in the bag and packing has become easier.

Dave

[stp]

Thanks to those who responded with their thoughts and experiences. I've developed

a much better sense of the range of lenses that can be used on both cameras. Of the

comments I've been able to find regarding asymmetric movements, many say they are

nice but not really necessary (except for speed in focusing), and those who have them

usually say they wouldn't have it any other way.

 

I'm impressed by the number of people who start with a relatively inexpensive shen

hao or tachihara and absolutely love the camera. Iﾒm also impressed by the number

of people who express some disappointment with these cameras and who do much

better with an ebony or linhof (or similar upgrade).

 

I personally don't agree that one should always start and learn on an inexpensive

camera. I've been photographing for many years, I know my temperament and

shooting style in the field, I know what I like to see on the other side of the lens

(landscapes), and I know how I want to process and display the results. [Yes, I agree

LF is very different.] I also agree (mostly) with those who express the thought that

the camera body is just a space between the eye and the lens, and those are more

critical elements of good photography. However, the elements of stability, ease of

use, weight, flexibility, and similar attributes of the camera body also contribute to

both the experience and the final image. Even though there may be diminishing

returns as the cost of the camera increases, I think there are still significant

differences. I'd like to enhance my shooting experience as well as my learning

experience by having a camera that earns consistently high marks from those who

use it.

 

At this point, I think the "ultimate" camera for me would be a linhof MT 2000 or an

ebony 45SU. But cost is a consideration, and I think the RW45 (in ebony or

mahogany, with universal bellows) will be a better camera for me over the next year

or two (and probably beyond) for my kind of photography. Thanks again for the time

you provided to share your opinions and experiences.

[daniel_jolicoeur]

Simple Answer; Shen-Hao HZX

[tedharris]

"At this point, I think the "ultimate" camera for me would be a linhof MT 2000 or an ebony

45SU .... "

 

I have been following this thread to see what developed and I am surprised to see you

mention the Tecknika. You couldn't find two more different cameras than either of the

Ebony's you mention and the Technika. If the Technika is at all of interest then you really

should look at the other metal body cameras before you make a decision, the Toyos,

Horsemen and Wistas. Personally I don't care for the Wistas but that is me (I jjust don't

find their build quality up to the other three). The Horseman FA and HD and the Toyo AII

and AX are every bit as solidly built as the Technika at way less money. You should take a

hard look at the Toyo AX which will serve you admirably, especially within the focal lengths

you mentioned originally. The Horseman HD, too. I mention these two specifically

because their new prices come closest to that of the Ebony RW45. I have owned and used

all three extensively (well the AII not the AX and the FA not the HD) and they all have their

pluses and minuses. If you do a lot of 'portrait' orientation shooting the HD may not be

for you as the backis not removable, Neither the Horseman nor the Toyo give you the

bellows extension of the Ebony but you can comfortably use a 240 with the Horseman and

a 300 with the Toyo. You can easily use a 75 on a flat board with either and with less

hassle than on an Ebony. They are all about the same size folded but the Ebony is the

lightest followed closely by the Horseman. IMO, all of the metal fields setup as quickly as

the Ebony non folders (yeah yeah yeah you have to take a few more seconds to mount a

lens). If you shoot a lot in cold weather where it would be nice to be able to keep your

hands in gloves then none of the others come close to the Toyo. BTW if you are really

intent on spending $2000 jsut to get the Ebony wood then you are in the same price

ballpark as the Toyo AII and only a few hundred shy of the Horseman FA. Both Horseman

and Toyo offer full feathered systems ala Linhof. IMO, I would prefer either to the

Technika as long as I didn;t want the rangefinder but that is a very personal choice.

 

Bottom line, if you have the ability to view and touch some of these you might change your

mind.

[michael_briggs2]

I'm with Brian. Don't worry too much about your first camera. LF cameras aren't like small and medium format -- selecting a camera brand doesn't lock you into a lens brand, or at least a lens mount. If you later decide on a different camera, all that you have to do is buy lensboards and move your existing lenses to the lensboards for the new camera. LF photography is different from small and medium, and until you have tried it for awhile, you don't know which features are most important to you: light weight, ease of using short lenses, ability to use very long lenses, precision, interchangable bellows, etc. The fact that you describe either a Linhof MT2000 or Ebony 45SU as your "ultimate" camera shows that you aren't sure about what your ultimate camera will be. So buy some camera, learn what you want to do with LF photography, what you want in an LF camera, and if your first LF camera isn't the best for you, then later buy the ultimate one.

 

These are all excellent cameras. If you want better advice for YOU than hearing what cameras other people find best for them, I suggest being more specific about your needs than saying "landscape photography". Does this mean hiking to you? Wide-angle lenses? etc.

 

Re the movements: almost all modern LF cameras have plenty of movements. The typical tilt in a landscape application is one or two degrees. Doing closeups you might do a tilt of ten degrees. Occasionally I use more than 45 mm of front rise. But you can get additional front rise indirectly, by tilting the camera upward, then tilting both standards back to where they where before tilting the camera upwards. You can also accomplish shift in a similar manner, by rotating the pointing direction of the camera, then using front and rear swings. But my most common use of shift is to make slight adjustments of the composition, so I would find a camera lacking any shifts inconvenient.

[tito sobrinho]

Ted, I was delighted to read your article about soft lenses in the last issue of the View Camera Magazine-Nov/Dec.

 

As for the thread, I don't have anything to add to a subject that was thoroughly well discussed.

 

Cheers, Tito.

[david_haardt1]

"The 45SU is not worth the extra purchase price over the other Ebony cameras, as it won't produce better pictures, but it's nice to own and easy to use and will hold it's value equal to the best of the rest."

 

Well, but if you take this comment to the extreme you should only care about the lens -- a photo taken with an Ebony will not look any better than the same photo taken with a Tachihara ;)

 

I agree with those who suggested that it's a good idea to buy a budget large format camera first before planning on the bought-for-life system without any large format experience.

 

I'm currently planning which 8x10 camera to buy, having previous experience with 4x5 (Super Speed Graphic), and here's what I did: I created a table including information on price, weight, movements (front rise, front fall, front shift, front swing, front base tilt, front centre tilt, rear rise, rear fall, rear shift, rear swing, rear base tilt, and rear centre tilt), bellows draw, and dimensions of Arca-Swiss, Bender, Cambo, Canham, Ebony, Gandolfi, Gowland, Horseman, Lotus, Osaka, Phillips, Shen Hao, sinar, Tachihara, Toho, Toyo, Wehman, Wisner, Wista and Zone VI 8x10 cameras and then decided to think about important criteria for me: I need a relatively light-weight camera for field work, and I absolutely need reasonable front rise, front tilt, and rear tilt. Rear swing would be a good addition for landscape work, the second-most important addition would be rear rise, and the least important addition rear fall. This left me with the Lotus and the Toho in the top group, Ebony in the second group, Canham and Wehman in the third group, and Phillips in the fourth group. If I want lots of movements, the Toho offers the same as the Lotus and is much cheaper and much lighter (but somewhat bulkier since it's a monorail). If I want movements which are perfectly sufficient for landscape work but not that extensive, the Wehman would be the best deal. Apart from the movements, the Toho is lighter but costs one third more than the Wehman, is bulkier, and more fragile when transported.

 

Such a systematic comparison may not be right for everybody, but it can be a real eye-opener.

 

For instance, you can read quite often that people used to metal cameras are disappointed by the precision and smoothness of Ebony cameras. Moreover, Ebonys are quite heavy compared to many other cameras. In that sense it might be useful to start from objective requirements for your type of work rather than buying the most expensive brand available.

 

Now of course you'll say that you don't know which movements you will need -- and this is the problem without any large format experience. That's why starting out with a less expensive camera may be wise. Extensive rentals are very expensive, and "wasting" 500 dollars for a budget camera is certainly cheaper than wasting several thousand dollars on a top camera when later on you might discover that it doesn't include the movements you need, or that it's too heavy for your purposes, or that you'd prefer a more rugged camera.

 

Best wishes,

 

David

[cxc]

The meaningful difference between these two cameras is bellows length. Be absolutely sure you are getting enough of it. Otherwise they both will shoot any landscape you may want. I am a giant fan of the asymmetrical swing of my Wehman, but I still consider it a luxury rather than a necessity. The SU's non-folding design is another appealing feature, though again a luxury: stowing the camera without having to take of the lens, especially when you know for sure you are going to use the same lens again shortly. Do you want to pay $1800 for luxury?

 

I vote for the RW. Best of luck with your choice.

[stp]

Christopher, you've captured my thoughts exactly. In response to some previous

comments, I don't think the money spent on any camera will ever be "wasted." A

camera can be sold and much of the cost can be recovered, regardless of the

initial cost of the camera. Buying a used camera will usually enable an owner to

recover a greater percentage of the initial cost. I still want to make an educated

decision rather than a random decision regarding which camera to start with. Some

folks hit it right the first time, and others aren't entirely happy after 3-4 cameras (and

different circumstances may call for different cameras). I appreciate those who have

offered their opinions and experiences; they will help me and others in my situation

decide what's best for my/our first steps.