armando_roldan Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 In the past 2 yrs, I have shot a handful of weddings with 2 coming in the last 4 months. I started as way to suppliment my income(or lack of) due the dot.com bust of 2002. I am now fully employed in the private sector but still enjoy building a portfilio and looking to add extra income with photography as something I can do anywhere in the world at any age. However I see the prices some of the posters here quote for a wedding and I am blown away. I charge a flat rate of $1200 for 250 4x6 prints and cds. I can't see how people can charge $20-30 even $40 for 8x10 print and 5x7 at $7-10 each and 4x6 at $5. I can't understand how some people whine about newbies or *ametures* taking way their business by not charging $2000 to $6000 for wedding. I mean ITS ONLY PHOTOGRAPHS. I know a couple guys that work for newspapers and shoot everyday and sometimes weekends and make $30,000 a yr. I know a guys that chases the superbike and motorcross events 2-3 weekends a month and might make $20,000 a year. Is calling yourself a WEDDING PHOTOGRAPHER really make you worth that much or it the precieved idea by wedding parties that if you going to get married you better spend a months income for 2 or 3 8x10 prints to frame and 150 photos that you look at for a few weeks after the honeymoon and then store in album to pull out once a year? This isn't meant at a flame but as a question since I could use the extra money myself but the photographer at my wedding charged me $500 about 8 yrs ago and 120 4x6 photos and a few nice 8x10s but no way could I afford to pay someone $2500 for the same thing. My wife is just as beautiful as that day and 3 of the best shots taken that day where by freinds and not the pro. Is it that those with more income think they should spend more as a status thing or are your services so vastly superior that people line up to pay those prices? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_sokal___dallas__tx Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 Is an Aston Martin really worth $250,000? I mean it's just a car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agaimages Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 It is worth it, some people put much time into designing an album, altering pictures in photoshop, which takes time, a lot of time. Not to mention meeting with clients, discussing needs, etc. I'm not for extreeme prices, but if you want to offer a good package with a nice album, there's no way you can do it for a $1,000. It's not about being WORTH THAT MUCH, its about hard work and commitment that does not last ONLY ONE day... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marshall Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 Some are worth it. Some probably aren't. Either way, you learn to price by what you're worth, what the market will bear, and a host of other factors. "It's only photographs" is likely to get you flamed a bit. These are pretty important photographs and talented photographers do pretty good work to create them. Not everyone can afford those rates, so not everyone gets those photographers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barry_davis___st._louis__m Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 Armando, I think in a free enterprise country I can freely chosse to set a price and a customer agree to it...or not! Its a great country, some would value a cut rate doctor doing heart surgery some would rather have John Hopkings guy do it...One thing I do think you might be missing is what goes into a wedding, not a 4x6, thats crazy...thats just the output of a file/film, ones time is what a B&G are paying for...not a print..How many total hours do you invest into one wedding and are you worthy of your rate. If you get rreferrals from happy customers then you know your doing it right! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armando_roldan Posted November 17, 2005 Author Share Posted November 17, 2005 yes. An Aston-Martin is just a car.4 wheels and nice interior. Just like my Honda Accord and my car costs 1/10 of the james bond car. No machine guns, doesn't go 200mph and not made of titinium. but then again, I could buy a 2nd house for the price of that toy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_p__boulder_co_ Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 My clients are not buying photographs they are purchasing an experience with me. They hire me because they like me, relate to me, are comfortable with me and trust me. If you can provide that level of service while creating top quality photographs then you will be in high demand and can raise your prices, as the market is willing to support you. If you just take pictures, give 4x6 prints and charge 1500.00 then you will attract the kind of client that wants that. Nothing wrong with 1500.00, but clients pay what they are willing and able and if you can demand 3000 or 5000 or 8000 or 10000 then charge it and be happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armando_roldan Posted November 17, 2005 Author Share Posted November 17, 2005 As an engineer, I make about $60,000 a year. Thats about $30 a hour. I am a good engineer, one of the best at what I do. As a photographer I make about about $75 a hour( profit) and I suck. I suppose I answered my own question. Yes, it is a license to steal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gluteal cleft Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 <b><i>This isn't meant at a flame but as a question since I could use the extra money myself but the photographer at my wedding charged me $500 about 8 yrs ago (snip) ...and 3 of the best shots taken that day where by freinds and not the pro.</i></b> <br><br> Perhaps you've answered your own question: If your friends took better pictures than the pro, then perhaps the "pro" wasn't all that good of a photographer. Wedding photography is probably the type of photography that I am *least* suited to, and my honest opinion is that over 50% of the wedding photographers out there aren't very good either - they're just in it for the money. However, there are some that can walk into a wedding, and within 5 minutes take 5 shots that I wouldn't be able to take in five hours, and really do blow me away. <br><br> Now, before I get to the rest of the argument, I'm going to illustrate a side-case. During Hurricane Katrina, when people were going crazy over gas availability, our local Costco didn't raise their prices one bit - they were over 60 cents cheaper per gallon than all of the gas stations. Three days later, I was their shopping for groceries, and noticed a sign near their gas station... "OUT OF GAS". Because they were by far the cheapest in town, they sold it much faster than they could receive it. Sure, they made some money - and may have felt pretty good about themselves for not gouging - but in the end, they ran out, which didn't do their customers any good, and didn't make them a whole lot of money. <br><br> Now, back to the wedding photography: Let's say that one of these very talented, in-demand photographers decides to cut his prices in half. What does he get? He gets booked solid for three years, never gets a single break, and doesn't make much money at it. Following to the inevitable, what will happen to him? Easy - he'll quit. It just won't be worth it to him. <br><br> By raising his prices, he allows himself to keep a more sane schedule, and perhaps devote more time to actual post-processing and preparation instead of just showing up and shooting. He enjoys a bit of free time and success, and so he stays in business. It's the free market at work. <br><br> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank_rizzo Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 Do not forget Armando many that are in the "ultra-buget" categories giving away the farm for $500 usually don't have the cost of business incidentals like being insured/bonded along with duplicate/backup equipment. You can teach an eight year old to hit a shutter button and point it at people. It takes an artist who possesses the skill and experience to make great photos in a "dark cave" with incandescents along the walls and fluorescents over the alter. There is a market for $500 photographers for people that there choice is between buget or nothing (aka friends), but at the same time don't knock people that charge what they are worth. If you read pn enough you will see many threads where the photographer is being told that they should charge MORE to keep there commissions in line with their skill and get away from folks that pay $1000 and expect 3K of work and two 11X14 albums for nothing. Good luck to you, there is always more to learn and this place is a great start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike dixon Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 Wedding photography is a luxury. If the prices are made clear from the beginning, and the photographer delievers what is promised, then no, it's not stealing, no matter how much it costs. Just because you perceive it as a poor value doesn't mean that anything has been stolen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_p__boulder_co_ Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 Well Armando, last time I shot weddings for 40 hours per week plus overtime was... never. Last time I got benefits for shooting weddings as a career was... never. Last time I worked 50 weeks a year was... never. Last time I got a promotion or raise was when I worked hard and earned it, we aren't just sitting back collecting the checks, we work hard for the clients that appreciate it. Wedding photography may break down to more per hour than your job but we don't get the perks, hours or consistency. Some of us work hard to produce art, clients that appreciate it pay for it because it means something to them. The clients don't have to hire a photographer that has vision, if they can't see the value there are plenty of bad snap shooters out their who will shoot 10 hours for $1000 and be thrilled. People on Photo.net don't seem to get the fact that clients pick their photographer. If the client wants to spend $500,000.00 instead of $5,000.00 on their total wedding they are entitled to do so. In fact for some clients a huge budget is nothing more than another way to enjoy life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cálico Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 I understand where you're coming from, my friend. But, let me try to say something that you might want to consider and I promise you that I will not defend the role of a wedding photographer, OK? First, consider this: there ARE indeed people that make a very handsome income and live exclusively from taking wedding photographs. They specialize in this field, my friend, and this has come from many years of training and experiences, not just reading "how-to" books on posing and a few business classes on how to charge money and keep the books straight in case the IRS should decide to audit that person. Some of these professionals have spent many, many years building a reputation based on the quality of their work. My friend, there is something called professionalism and too often that escapes too many of us, sometime that also includes those involved in professional photography... and those few of give the rest a bad reputation... Professional wedding photography includes but is not limited to the technical know-how that comes from many years of practice, trial and error, studying (or reading books, too) and taking part in seminars, a few years assisting another professional photograher, learning and then knowing technical details on lighting techniques that escape you and me, or the minor details of how a female should hold her hands or the details on how she should hold her fingers, her make-up, etc. They know, for example, why Aunt Sadie shouldn't be posed facing the camera because of her girth or to ask Uncle Benny to turn slightly to minimize that doublt chin, or his slight physical imperfection... or how to handle a bothersome person without offending anyone (or causing a riot to break out). It goes beyond knowing the mechanical aspect of handling a camera; it also involves knowing about composition, knowing how to take advantage of complimentary and complementary colors that may be present, knowing when to break certain "photographic rules" to achieve a desired maximum effect, or when to use this lens over that one because of the preferred depth of field to include or exclude a particular detail in the background. A good or great photo is not one that has good exposure, good focus and a subject...no? There are a few other elements involved, don't you agree? Who knows better, a Johnny-come-lately wannabe or an established professional? You decide. There are many "nice" photos taken quite by chance by those once-in-a-while photographers, my friend, but just as the exception does not and never will make the rule, I must disagree with you, and I do so with the utmost respect. You might call that "luck" and as such, I ask you, would YOU prefer to rely on "luck" or the experience of an established professional to do something for you, like repairing your roof or your automobile? Today, there are a multitude of digital camera owners that learn the mechanical aspect of his/her camera and they click away as though they were shooting a Gatlling Gun in a battle field. OK, they take 800-1,000 photos and hopefully they can recover 50-100 photos, if they're THAT lucky. That does not make them into a professional photographer. Too often, I hear someone say, "Oh, I can do that.." and it reminds of the difference between an acrobat and a gymnast: the acrobat will perform an easy, simple stunt and make it look as though he/she had performed a death-defying act while the gymnast will make an extremely difficult and possibly dangeroud stunt and make it LOOK easy and simple (kind of like the difference between the once-in-a-while photographer and the professional). Don't think that most or all professional wedding photographers are out to squeeze the last drop of blood from the bride and groom; they are performing a service and they are entitled to be paid in accordance to their skills, talents, training, know-how, etc. And, don't forget, people get what they pay for... What YOU think you're worth is not necessarily what the next person thinks he/she is worth. By all means, best wishes to you and the best of luck, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timcorridan Posted November 18, 2005 Share Posted November 18, 2005 are you realy adding up the cost of buisnes armando? batteries=10 bucks.or rechargables= 100 bucks a year. 16 hours labor per wedding = ? .liability insurance-$250 a year. (you CAN get sued by the way) depreciation on your lens/ camera/speedlite when some kid takes a wack at them or whatever. printing. film or time on the puter. things you wouldn't have bought for just the hobby of it. buiss. cards. brouchures. website start-up and monthly dues. some clothes you might not normaly purchase. ect... i'm sure others can expand...i spend 3 hours putting together a proof book sorting through 500 prints, an hour meeting w/ them before the wedding, bringing film in, picking it up,(or time on the puter for you digi guys/gals), cleaning gear, ect.. it adds up to 16 hours pretty quick. you might not be making quite $75 an hour . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill c. Posted November 18, 2005 Share Posted November 18, 2005 MY photographs are certainly worth it. And I have had people who didn't choose me as their photographer come back to me and tell me that they were sorry they shopped on price, as the images from the cheap photographer weren't nearly as good as the shots I had done for their (friend's, sibling's, cousin's, etc.) wedding. You get what you pay for. YOU might not be capable of seeing the difference, but I'm in business for the people who can. People can tell cheap photography. Not everybody, but a significant portion of people. And looking at a junky picture of someone says that they either didn't have the sensibility or were too cheap to hire a good photographer. Lots of real estate agents lose lots of business because the shots on their cards look like they were taken by a sappy high-school photographer. It has taken lots of work to get as good as I am, and I charge my clients for that investment. I've had several companies turn me down for executive headshots because of my prices, and then hire me later because the cheap photographer they did hire didn't take images that projected the image that the company wanted to project. And like I say, YOU might not be able to tell the difference between merely competent photography and outstanding photography -- and your clients might not be able to, either that or they don't care -- but there are a lot of people out there who can. It's worth it to them, and that's why they hire me. I've had a lot of people who regretted that I couldn't or didn't shoot their wedding, but none who I did shoot for who regretted the investment. Best of luck. -BC- "The disappointment of low quality lingers far, far longer than the joy of a low price." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timcorridan Posted November 18, 2005 Share Posted November 18, 2005 ps. i'm also a beginner. and i think the value of great service also needs to be factored in. there's alot of crap in photography ive found. if you deliver good service, you deserve more dinero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melisa Posted November 18, 2005 Share Posted November 18, 2005 Quit that $60,000 a year day job and see how long you'll get by living your current lifestyle...or any lifestyle for that matter. How many weddings do you do a year? It's not always a year round business...unless you live somewhere warm. Now, divide that by 52 weeks. Take off your costs of goods, pay the other costs of doing business and being professional...advertising, top of the line equipment, repair and maintenance of that equipment, office supplies, insurance, employees, etc. Oh yeah, and feed your family. Should it then be considered stealing to call yourself a wedding photographer if you're really an engineer with a handful of weddings under your belt? If an artist buys his canvas for $20 and the paint for $10 is his masterpiece only worth $30? Ya know, I eat at Burger King when I need quick, cheap and processed cheesy...I eat at Trattoria Stella (my new favorite) when I want perfection...a fine dining experience, an insane wine collection, and real Parmigiano Reggiano...it's so worth the extra $ to have it done right! It's a wedding for God's sake...you get what you pay for...every moment must be captured...there's no take backs. "It's only photographs?" This is not the right business for you if that is your attitude. Hopefully your future brides don't catch this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keith_van_hulle1 Posted November 18, 2005 Share Posted November 18, 2005 Armando, post some of the shots. You may be underpricing yourself. Put up 10-15 and the talented people here can let you know. Then again, if you're one of the best at what you do as an engineer and only pull in 60k, there may be some self-evaluation issues here too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armando_roldan Posted November 18, 2005 Author Share Posted November 18, 2005 Thanks to all,especially Calico. By the way, I make each shot as if it was the last I will ever take. I made each shot as if the only image someone will get from the wedding. I make each shot with all my skill and experiance and knowing it will be something they hopefully will treasure for 60 years and their children will and their grandchildren will but its not life or death. I am not a doctor doing heart surgery or a lawyer trying to save your life at a trial. I am a photographer first and a business man second. Thats what matters to me. Maybe thats my problem. thanks to all again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjogo Posted November 18, 2005 Share Posted November 18, 2005 The clients approach us ...they can easily walk away from our services. If they have made their choice , accepted the quality and the price that accompanies our photography...they pay the suggested price. We do not offer albums or any enlargements --we sell the negatives, and our 30 years of experience. The top photographers, in our town, work many hours less than a doctor and are paid more of a salary. 45 days = 45 weddings a year > @$750 to $1K an hour ~ is not unreasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_p__boulder_co_ Posted November 18, 2005 Share Posted November 18, 2005 <i>By the way, I make each shot as if it was the last I will ever take. I made each shot as if the only image someone will get from the wedding. I make each shot with all my skill and experiance and knowing it will be something they hopefully will treasure for 60 years and their children will and their grandchildren will...</i> <p> Great to hear! Even though you suck (taken from your above post) you are giving your clients all you can and that is admirable. <p> <i>I am a photographer first and a business man second. Thats what matters to me. Maybe thats my problem.</i> <p> Change that order and multiply your prices by 5 and you'll be in better shape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lex_jenkins Posted November 18, 2005 Share Posted November 18, 2005 Hmm... I thought it was a license to give away. I shoot weddings only as gifts to family and friends. And I still think I'm charging too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurenm Posted November 18, 2005 Share Posted November 18, 2005 I just started out this past summer as an assistant / second shooter. I have a lot to learn and am a long way from doing my own weddings. I too used to think photographers charged a fortune until I learned more about the business. A Responsible, Professional wedding photographer (usually running there own business)is: 1) constantly learning the latest and greatest in equipment and techniques 2)updating equipment, buying batteries, paying for film and developing or spending time doing own processing. 3) managing accounting of the business 4) updating and maintaining a website 5) updating and maintaining marketing 6) meeting with potential clients who never hire them and ones who do and require several meetings pre and post wedding 7) paying for insurance 8) paying an assistant 9) spending 8 plus hours on the big day with the couple. Yes, some wedding photographers may be charging more than they are "worth" as far as their skill and product to the client. I have taken some great photos both as an assistant and for friends and family. Any guest could also happen to come up with a great photo but can they or I produce a whole album of great photos? I would guess that most wedding photographers who do such for a "living" spend almost a 40 hr week working on the above mentioned items. Take their fee and minus the cost of an album and the cost of running the business and all of the above and most are not making a ton of money. This is why I suspect studios exist with many photographers working under one business therefore cutting costs. You mentioned a newspaper photographer? How many actual hours do they work? Do they have to buy own equipment? do they have health ins? retirement plan? liability insurance? marketing overhead? sick and vaca time? Again, I know that yes, some are charging more than their skill may be "worth". Its a tough call for the consumer to decide who is "worth it". Some are some aren't. As someone else said, you charge what the market will hold just like any other business. It is a business afterall even if you happen to love it as I do and hope to someday be able to be good enough to make a living at it and give it 1000% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjogo Posted November 18, 2005 Share Posted November 18, 2005 I started out as a photographer first--but business needs to be first..to succeed financially. Plenty of starving artists out there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dror_eyal Posted November 18, 2005 Share Posted November 18, 2005 <a href="http://www.pdnonline.com/pdn/newswire/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001476300">Its not even a real photograph</a> - the thief.<br> Now why don't I have clients that want to spend that much? <br> <br> Dror. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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