Canon's EOS Design

[jayesh]

First of all, this is not a Canon v/s Nikon post. I'm an engineer and

although I'm not an expert in ergonomics, I feel Canon's EOS design

is somewhat strange. I'm sure Canon must have taken loads of feedback

from professional photographers, but I still cannot fathom why

certain things are the way they are.

On the other hand, when I look at Nikon, I see a lot of nice design

touches and most of the buttons (if not all) seem perfectly logical.

 

Some of the things about Canon that I hate.

 

1. The Power Switch placement.

 

2. The extremely small buttons, it seems so confusing and it's not at

all intutitive to me (both the 20D and the 1 series design).

 

3. Painting the flash shoe black. ( It just takes a few flash

mountings to make the paint on the shoe chip. Why not leave the shoe

without the black paint as Nikon does. Doesn't it seem more logical?

 

4. Nikon's excellent idea of providing a LCD protector. How much more

cost can it incur?

 

5. Why make the lens hood so scratch prone? Even on L lenses. Why not

design it better with the same finish as the lens.

 

6. The lens cap. Nikon, Tokina and I guess Tamrons' lens cap design

is so much more useful especially when taking and putting lens caps

with the hood on.

 

I could probably give some more, but I want your opinions. Is it just

me or are there more that wish Canon would do a better job of

designing their cameras and lenses from purely an aesthetic and

ergonomic point of view.

 

None of the above gripes make me a lesser photographer, I have always

felt that my imagination and my capabilities are the limiting factor

than my camera or my lenses, but looking at Nikons' D200 design makes

one realize how much work Canon has to do in these departments.

 

Comments please.

[ron_jonson]

I think mostly it comes down to legacy issues. From the professional and advanced amateur perspective, many people have been using either Canon or Nikon for years. You tend to stick with what you know in a lot of cases, unless there's significant reason to change. Also, the first camera you get and learn with is many times what ends up being your "standard". There are things about both systems that are probably good and bad, but I think mostly it's not enough to make too many people switch once they've become familiar with one or the other and also have invested in lenses and other accessories.<br><br>Manufacturers can't alienate their customer base by making radical changes. Once in a while they'll come out with a radical new design (Canon switching from the FD to EF lenses for example), but for the most part it's small incremental changes.<br><br>

As an engineer, I'm sure you know that many new product design decisions are not always based on what's the "best" engineering solution, and that many things are due to legacy issues. I see this a lot.<br><br>I'm really comfortable with Canon's control layout and it works for me. I've picked up and fired off some frames with a couple Nikon AF cameras, but just didn't feel comfortable because I didn't know where certain things were. Probably if I took the time, it would be great, but I'm really happy and comfortable with Canon. <br><br>On the other hand, I've owned both Nikon's and Canon's old Manual Focus cameras and I feel equally at home with both since the controls are simpler. In that case, I ended up sticking with Nikon because I did prefer subtle things about the way it was laid out. And I agree about the lens cap thing. Seems so simple, but Nikon is the only one who got it right.

[mark_chappell]

Of course, this is largely a matter of personal taste and what you're used to (? have you

used Canon DSLRs extensively, or Nikon DSLRs?). Myself, I don't think the design

differences amount to much, and I've used both brands (these days I use a 10D and a

1DII). I can see this leading to a flame war, but for mild amusement I'll respond to your

points:<P>

 

1. I've not had issues with the power switch. It's never seemed oddly placed, perhaps

because I rarely use it. Like many people I leave the camera switched on nearly all the

time, since battery drain is miniscule in sleep mode.<P>

 

2. You get used to them quite quickly, although I wish some of them were in different

places on occasion.<P>

 

3. If you think the color of the flash shoe is a big deal, so be it. Both painted and

unpainted shoes rapidly get marked up if you do a lot of flash mounting and unmounting.

You should see how beat up my Nikon F3 and N90 shoes looked after a few years.<P>

 

4. Personally, I don't see the point to LCD protectors. They're one more thing to get in

the way, or lose. My 'bare' LCDs have never gotten seriously scratched despite

considerable abuse, and they're easy to clean. <P>

 

5. Making the hood the same finish as the lens would likely be more costly and would

contribute nothing to utility. I prefer a flexible soft plastic hood that absorbs shock when

you bump something, rather than transmitting it to the important part of the lens.<P>

 

6. I FAR prefer the Canon lenscaps to some of the ergonomic disasters I've experienced

with Nikon lenscaps. Frankly, I fail to see your point here.<P>

 

I think some of Nikon's design failures, or oversights, have been far more crucial to

function, regardless of aesthetics. They make superb lenses, but then sometimes equip

them with absurdly flimsy tripod mounts that even ardent Nikon partisans agree are

terrible (300/4, 80-400), to the extent that there is a thriving cottage industry producing

replacements for tripod mounts or tripod feet on these and other Nikon lenses (look at the

Kirk website <A HREF="http://www.kirkphoto.com/lenscollars.html">here</a> or <A

HREF="http://www.kirkphoto.com/accessories.html#nikonknob">here</a> or <A

HREF="http://www.kirkphoto.com/newlensplate2.html">here</a>, for example). They've

failed for years to push VR into their big telephotos (the reason I finally gave up on them),

and they were very late to the party with internal focus motors. Those latter two issues

caused mass defections of sports and nature photographers to Canon.

[jayesh]

Mark, I never intended for this post to become a flame. That's why I clarified it first.

I've never been a Nikon user. Always used Canon from Elan IIE to EOS3 to EOS 10D now 20D. However my father and several friends of mine use Nikon, so I'm familiar with their design. I'm sure there are lots who like Canon's design, which is why they sell tons of cameras. I just failed to see the justification for some of the design decisions they make, so I wanted to get a feeling of what others feel with respect to that area. And some of points you and others have made in this post does make sense. It's just constructive critisism. No big deal in any of these things. After all only the photograph matters.

 

 

As for me, I'm still using Canon because I like my lenses and I like the pictures my camera produces. I'm not going to switch just because I like Nikon's ergonomics better. I'd have to win a lottery even before I think of switching.

[PuppyDigs]

<P>1. The Power Switch placement. </P>

 

<P><B>It's just you. I turn it on once a shoot and leave it on all day without

problems.</B></P>

 

<P> 2. The extremely small buttons, it seems so confusing and it's not at all

intutitive to me (both the 20D and the 1 series design). </P>

 

<P><B>I found Nikon's interface confusing probably because they avoided the

intutitive design of the Canon just to be different.</B></P>

 

<P>3. Painting the flash shoe black. ( It just takes a few flash mountings to make

the paint on the shoe chip. Why not leave the shoe without the black paint as Nikon

does. Doesn't it seem more logical? </P>

 

<P><B>Who really cares about this one? Red or pink might be a problem...</B></

P>

 

<P> 4. Nikon's excellent idea of providing a LCD protector. How much more cost can

it incur?</P>

 

<P><B>Canon's LCD has a build-in protector. If you scratch it, you can easily replace

the plastic cover. A new LCD cover for my 10D cost about $10.</B></P>

 

<P>5. Why make the lens hood so scratch prone? Even on L lenses. Why not design

it better with the same finish as the lens. v

 

<P><B>I don't have many scratches on my hoods. However, it won't matter what

finish is used if you rub your gear on rocks.</B></P>

 

<P>6. The lens cap. Nikon, Tokina and I guess Tamrons' lens cap design is so much

more useful especially when taking and putting lens caps with the hood on. </P>

 

<P><B>Who uses a lenscap? I throw all mine away so I don't have to remove them to

get a fast picture.</B></P>

 

<P>Sounds like you're a former Nikon shooter and got used to the Nikon interface

and design. Most Canon shooters feel like everything is ass backwards when trying

Nikon gear...</P>

[PuppyDigs]

"Sounds like you're a former Nikon shooter and got used to the Nikon interface and

design."

 

Or were in a former life!

[wickerman_wickerman1]

QUOTE---Jayesh Sukumaran , nov 04, 2005; 04:23 p.m.

Mark, I never intended for this post to become a flame.

 

 

Well Jayesh i suppose i would call my self an Engineer, i went to college in my youth and served an apprenticeship and obtained my trade certificates---but that was in heavy industry and not camera design, so i wouldnt come on a camera forum and claim to know all about camera's.

 

You have, are you an Engineer involved in camera design?

 

Personally i think you are just another of the bozo's on this forum who claim this and that--most of it pure crap and they never back it up. You could be a well intentioned innocent but just lately the bozo's have been having a field day and attained Photo.net hero status, so excuse me for misinterpreting your intentions.

 

I dont think it matters which is the best camera and whose make it is, if someone made the perfect camera then we would all know as we would all have that one.

[rwhillman]

I've used Canon and Nikon. Both are well designed. After a short period of adjustment, the controls in each seem well placed. Ten minutes with the owner's manual will take you through the various buttons and their functions. I doubt that anyone who has used a Canon for more than a few hours is confused about how to operate it, and the same is true of Nikon. They are made to be used, and much of the conversation about which design is better borders on the silly.

[rick s]

Some of the above responses are funny. I'd like to see the contrast in replies you'd get if you posted this over on the Nikon fourm... ;-)

[jayesh]

wickerman, thanks for showing up. I was just about wondering where the real 'bozos' where. Thanks for proving that you guys still exist.

 

If you don't have any constructive comments, please do something else.

 

I never claimed to be a camera expert. Chill out friend, it's not your brother I was commenting about, it's just a machine. Get a life and if that's not possible, go hang yourself. I'll gladly sponser the rope.

[jayesh]

Some of the above responses are funny. I'd like to see the contrast in replies you'd get if you posted this over on the Nikon fourm... ;-)

 

 

 

I wont't bother. Some people take it so personally or so misunderstand you. Man, I wish I could just delete this thread. My mistake. Won't repeat it.

[www.photo.netphotosegan]

I gess buy a Nikon then!.!.!.

[wickerman_wickerman1]

Quote----Jayesh Sukumaran , nov 04, 2005; 05:27 p.m.

wickerman, thanks for showing up. I was just about wondering where the real 'bozos' where. Thanks for proving that you guys still exist.

If you don't have any constructive comments, please do something else.

 

I never claimed to be a camera expert. Chill out friend, it's not your brother I was commenting about, it's just a machine. Get a life and if that's not possible, go hang yourself. I'll gladly sponser the rope.

 

I aint got a brother-----i am chilled but everytime this topic has been bought up this week they have deleted it-------i have a life, and mine isnt spent sadly trying to convince people their little machine aint built right---i dont believe you are capable of building a gallows

[rob_landry]

Jayesh,

 

I shoot Nikon, but have used my fair share of Canons and I much prefer the ergonomics and build quality of the Nikons. Even Phil Askey of Dpreview, who I believe is a Canon man, seems to rave about Nikon's ergonomics. I believe in his D2h review, he stated that it was the best handling camera he had ever held. His Nikon D200 preview is just as glowing.

[grant g]

"...this is not a Canon v/s Nikon post."

 

Maybe not intentionally...

 

I have 5 or more Canon bodies and all of the power switches are in different places. Really. So you have no idea. Mode dial on right (300D), mode dial on left (7Ne), upper left back (D30), middle bottom back (10D), shutter release surround (IXe).

 

Some of my Canon hot shoes are not painted. 300D and IXe. I agree that paint here is not needed.

 

I think a textured finish on the hood would mark more. I actually wish the bodies were smoother and prefer the paint finish on the 300D or IXe.

 

I can remove any of my lens caps without removing the hood using only a finger. I tried the pinch style caps and had more trouble. Pinch caps given away.

 

And none of MY LCDs have scratches. I suppose I'm just careful.

 

I'm an engineer too. No biggie there. Maybe you're the type to wear a pocket protector? Just kidding. If you like Nikon ergonomics, why do you own a Canon?

 

The *only* thing I could claim to hate about my Canons are that the digital bodies do not have ISO in the viewfinder!

[potok]

ok you must be kidding me?

 

1. The Power Switch placement.

 

i turned my on 6 months ago and i dont even remember where the switch is. Who cares it

goes to sleep in 5 min anyway. But seems like button is even bigger then on my

PowerBook.

 

2. The extremely small buttons, it seems so confusing and it's not at all intutitive to me

(both the 20D and the 1 series design).

 

what do you mean by small? it is not emergency button on your car that needs to be big

and bright red with flashing ! as you drive.

 

 

3. Painting the flash shoe black. ( It just takes a few flash mountings to make the paint on

the shoe chip. Why not leave the shoe without the black paint as Nikon does. Doesn't it

seem more logical?

 

ok get silver DRebel, problem solved.

 

4. Nikon's excellent idea of providing a LCD protector. How much more cost can it incur?

 

Amazing idea, now can they also get creative with camera names? D1, 1D, wow that one

should get award.

 

5. Why make the lens hood so scratch prone? Even on L lenses. Why not design it better

with the same finish as the lens.

 

Ok how do you scratch the lens hood? outside is plastic, inside is that scratch prone stuff.

So unless you want to take a close up of less then 3 inches you have no problem.

 

 

6. The lens cap. Nikon, Tokina and I guess Tamrons' lens cap design is so much more

useful especially when taking and putting lens caps with the hood on.

 

Cannot answer this one, i loose my cap within week or so.

 

What amazes me with Nikon is red triangle at handle? wow, what a design, I will just throw

my apple away and look on ebay for laptop with red rubber, something.

 

oh never mind now i know what that red triangle reminds me.

[chris_floden]

You're an engineer? From the sounds of it, you'd better stick to your day job and keep the train running. :-)

[rick s]

<b>:-)</b><br><br>

This thread keeps getting funnier. Why are people so defensive about their choice of camera? I guess I never really paid that close attention to the Nikon vs. Canon thing before. Here Jayesh posts a perfectly legit question and everyone starts baggin' on him. I don't think he was implying that one system was better than the other at all.<br><br>

Sometimes I think cameras are like other things... cars, motorcycles, guitars, stereo systems, jewlery, etc... People want to have the 'best' or the 'biggest' or the 'loudest' or the 'latest' thing out there. Kind of an insecurity thing if you ask me (I know I'm going to get slammed, but who cares). Real photographers will go out and shoot with whatever they feel comfortable with and come back with great shots..... Whether that's a Hasselblad H1D or a 1Ds Mark II or a Rebel XT or an A1 or a Nikon F or a D2X or a Leica M7 or a Holga or Rollieflex or point-n-shoot or view camera or whatever. People insecure about their technique or results will always look for something that they think will make them take better photographs. If they can't find it, they'll boast about what they have. <br><br> It's not about the equipment folks.<br><br>

[wickerman_wickerman1]

Isnt a garbage man classified as a waste engineer nowadays?

[wickerman_wickerman1]

Quote-------It's not about the equipment folks.

 

-------------

 

Ever asked a woman?

[rick s]

<i>>>> Ever asked a woman? </i><br><br>

A camera is not a penis... but I actually almost put it in the list of things I enumerated. So as long as someone else thinks it belongs there.... A camera is also like a penis to some people, with the same insecurity issues that go along with it. My girlfriend swoons whenever I whip out my big 10" ..... 10"x8" view camera that is :-)

[rick s]

.....also, you ever attend a photo workshop and there's the guy with the smallest, cheapest, camera who always seems to slither into the background seeming almost embarrassed about his 'equipment'. Then there's the guy with the shiny, big, new latest camera who's talkin' it up. Funny. Who takes better photos? Don't know. But I know that I've seen amazing, beautiful, and powerful images from people using the crappiest cameras you could think of... I think the key is having a vision and the balls to just out there and make it happen. If you fail, keep trying. Buying a new camera or lens might help for some specific situation (although there's usually more than one solution), but it sure won't solve the fundamental issue.

[jayesh]

Isnt a garbage man classified as a waste engineer nowadays?

 

Is that what it says on your business card? What a waste. I guess you're not even worth a rope. I take my offer back.

[andrew robertson]

1. The power switch is placed in the center of the back of the camera, the reasoning being

that you are less likely to hit it accidentally because your hands are elsewhere.

 

2. The buttons aren't THAT small - I think they are smaller so they can be spaced wider

apart to avoid accidental presses. I find Nikon's buttons to be too large and closely placed

- I can hit the wrong button far too easily on the D100 for example.

 

3. The shoe isn't painted, it's anodized. It's black to reduce reflections.

 

4. The LCD protector is in fact built in. You can pull it off once it gets too beat up and

order a new one from Canon, with everything included to install it, for less than $5.

 

5. The hoods on many L lenses (the expensive big white ones anyway) are in fact the

same finish as the lens. I guess Canon favored a lighter weight hood on the smaller L

lenses over something that was metal and heavy to keep some semblance of compactness

to the lens.

 

6. I like the caps, personally. This one is a toss up.

[shiver_me_timbrrrre]

Think Nikon's design is nicer, then buy a Nikon.

 

Canon's equipment is fine by me, even from an aesthestic and ergonomic point of view. At least, I don't have to put up with an ugly red triangle but that's one of personal preference.

 

So, it is just you. That's why some are Canon folks, some are Nikon folks and some are the others folks.