A crazy thing..M7 with a flash

[ericamcdonald]

Well I did a crazy thing...I put a flash on the hot shoe of my M7. I

was shooting tri-x. I shot in outdoor low light, with the camera on

the AUTO setting and the flash rated normally/aperture at f8, with

the subject about 15 feet away. Every picture came out blasted

with flash, subject all washed out. I've never used the flash on

this baby before...was I only susposed to sync at the flash

symbol setting? If so, why is auto in red too? What did I do by

shooting with flash and auto?

[feli]

Does your flash support exposure compensation? You want to set the output of the flash to

cut off 1.5 - 2 stops below the set aperture. Otherwise you will just blast your subject in to

oblivion.

[huw_finney]

Outdoors, thats the problem, the subject is smaller than the sensor of the flash and hence will need to be brighter to get the same reading. It's (more) OK indoors as the room reflects the light too. This applies to TTL flash too as the effective sensor area is larger than the Leica white dot as it uses the film as a reflector.

[e_b7]

What type of flash did you use? Does this flash have a TTL setting? If you have a flash that has an auto mode for f8, then the camera needs to be set at f8 as well, if it's pretty dark and most of the light is coming from the flash. If you are planning to use the M7's TTL feature, then the flash must be compatible with the M7 (Leica flash or Metz unit with proper SCA adapter, for example). If your flash is not compatible, you can still use it, but not by setting the camera to auto, and the flash to f8, and expecting everything to come out OK.

 

For outdoor fill-flash, a 2-1 ratio works nicely, with most of the light coming from the sun, and the flash two stops lower. The TTL feature will do this for you, but only if the flash is set for TTL and is compatible with the camera. As for shutter speeds, the camera will synch at its highest flash synch speed, or slower, but not higher. I don't recall the highest speed on the M7, but with older Leica Ms, it's 1/48.

 

One way to manually get outdoor fill flash is to meter the scene, set the lens (shutter at flash synch speed), set the flash to manual (full power) and use the guide number calculations to stand at the correct distance from the subject. Then either back up at the distance that gives you a 2-1 ratio, or close the lens 1/2 stop (either seems to work fine).

 

I'd be able to answer your question better if I knew the type of flash and it's available settings.

 

Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "flash rated normally/aperture at f8," but I am guessing this is an auto infrared beam setting available on the flash.

[andrew_hall1]

>I shot in outdoor low light, with the camera on the AUTO setting and the flash rated normally/aperture at f8, with the subject about 15 feet away.

 

Why shoot at f/8 in low light AND at such a distance? The subjects are guaranteed to look as though they were shone by headlights in a dark cave.

 

Use slow shutter speeds and larger apertures (preferably with fast film) in low light situations, even with flash, so that the illumination doesn't look so hot and harsh.

 

And it's been already pointed out that you have to make sure the flash is set to the correct distance range and ISO, and the same shooting aperture as the lens.

[les_dickoff]

If you have to use a flash, set it correctly, back it off one stop, and bounce it off the ceiling, or don't use a flash but use fast film.

[terry_rory]

When I used my Bessa R3A/Summicron I never seriously considered using flash on it. Just like the M7 it is not a camera which is designed primarily for use with flash. I put a flash on it once just to try using it for fill-in but it was not satisfactory.

 

Maybe if you used the SF20 Leica flash you would get better results.

 

I leave flash duties for my Nikon D70 & SB-600. In P mode, i-TTL BL (with diffuser) with matrix metering it is completely un-foolable indoors and out.....<div></div>

[william_boyd]

Your daughter photo has nice bokeh.

[jorn ake]

So E.B., you seem to know what you are talking about - in the Friedlander show at MOMA, those photographs showed a frequent use of fill flash to separate objects in the foreground from objects in background. Even on shots where you wouldn't normally expect someone to use fill flash with a Leica - low light interiors to quite well illuminated street corners. Friedlander used non-TTL M3s and M4s evidently - how was Friedlander doing fill flash? Was he using the fast film approach you mentioned above? I am guessing that his flash did not have any sort of compensation abilities - or am I wrong?

 

Erica, part of the reason you need a compatible flash is that flashes like a thrystor flash (Vivitar 283 for ex.) function at a voltage level that can do damage to your TTL circuitry, as well as not being able to use TTL mode with the automatic setting on the M7.

[ericamcdonald]

Thanks everyone..I used a non TTL flash without Exposure

compensation, a Canon Speedlit 155A. Looking again at the

flash, I think what I did was this: the camera was at F8, in AUTO

mode. (My rationale: I wanted medium depth of field, and for the

camera to determine shutter speed as it is Aperture Priority)\

I set the flash to MANUAL, 400 asa, which yields f8 at 15 feet.

And sometimes I set the flash to 200 asa (My rationale, half

power/fill).

And sometimes, I set the flash to AUTO with these same

settings. All setting yielding blasted results.

Why did I do this? I was finshing up a shoot that I was just using

available light for, all handheld, film loaded in the camera, when

it got dark and rainy quickly but I wanted to finish up the roll/shoot

quickly.

I was told my M7 has TTL metering, but not TTl flash

compatibility. I am hearing 'you' say it has TTL flash compatibility.

[bernard_frank]

Les, I'm afraid bouncing the flash of the ceiling for an outdoor shot might yield

surprising results. OTOH, it's a surefire way to not overexpose your flash photos.

[malcolm_tentt]

It's Rocket Science that flash business.

[jim_jeblee]

You said asa sometimes @ 200? 1/2 power? setting asa down from 400 to 200 double the light output of the flash, or in many manual flash conditions changes the distance or F-stop as most flashes put out a set amount of light w/ many haveing 1/2 1/4 1/8 etc.. If camera was set for 15' @ F8 (assuming shutter @ or below sync) then flash should be set @ about F16 @ 15'. If your flash only has a full power manual setting it's hard to manage this. I have used auto by setting the asa to 1.5-2x the in camera film speed, 400asa film & 1250-1600asa set up on flash. But w/ auto flash if your subjects are small in the frame sometimes you get too much fill. Manual w/ Sunpack 120j & 383 & Mtz54 seem to be fine.

I hope that helps?

Jim

[mattalofs]

"Friedlander used non-TTL M3s and M4s evidently - how was Friedlander doing fill flash?"

 

Probably with a flash that had multiple manual settings like 1/2, 1/8, 1/32 etc. If you can do division it's pretty easy to figure out. GN = f/stop x Flash-to-subject distance. If the GN is 60 and your subject is 15 feet away you set your fstop to 4 (if you are using 100 speed film, if 400 then it would f8). If you can do quick math (or if you make a cheat sheet ahead of time) this is about the most reliable way to get flash exposures.

 

 

Erica, the manual for your flash is available here: http://www.canonfd.com/155ind.htm. It looks like your flash has both Auto and Manual settings. In manual, you have to do the GN calculation explained above using a GN of 55 for 100 speed film. In Auto it looks like you have 2 choices; you can use either f2.8 or f5.6 if you are using 100 speed film. Most of these flashes have a caculator dial that tells you what the effective distance is for various settings. Both auto and manual modes work independently of the meter on your camera; You just set the relevant fstop indicated by the flash.

 

Your camera does do TTL flash with a compatible unit like an SF24. In TTL mode, you set the aperture that gives the effect you want, and the flash dumps out light until the meter in the camera tells it to stop.

 

For more basic info on flash try the following two articles:

http://www.dantestella.com/technical/flashguide.html

http://www.dantestella.com/technical/fill.html

[johns1]

Erica,

 

Read your M7 owner's manual. You need a flash that specifically supports

the SCA standard to take advantage of the special features on your M7 on

"Auto."

 

Without SCA compatibility in the flash, any flash can be used conventionally

on your Leica at 1/50 (or slower) of a second.

 

-jb

[prime lens]

I've heard that supercilious tone before...

 

That Malcontent character sounds like Jay.

[andrew_hall1]

Dante's page is about <i>daylight</i> fill flash. You have to reverse everything (i.e. use fast film, slow shutter speed, etc) for indoor and low light situations.

[scott_mcloughlin]

I'm assuming your pictures are really banged out, ruined, not just a little "too flash like." Um, first, put the camera in manual mode. Set the shutter speed to the flash sync speed 1/55 or 1/30. Set the aperture to f4 or f5.6. Personally, if I'm using flash, I don't want to wrestle with f2.8 or small DOF issues.

 

Now you have to setup your flash correctly. It has to have an auto mode where you can set the corresponding aperture (on the flash). Set the flash aperture setting to what you have on the camera, say f4. Now, if the flash has compensation, dial it down 1/3 or 2/3 stops.

 

Now, try to frame your subjects in the center of the frame. It's easy for the flash auto sensor to be "looking" at a wall accross the room while your subject is framed on the sides of the film frame.

 

Also, close focus (distance) subjects might have some problems, again, moreso if you can't dial down the flash power with a bit of compensation.

 

Bounce flash looks nicer when possible. Consider picking up a Vivitar 283 or 285 (cheap flashes). I have a 285 with the cool off camera cord that keeps the auto sensor on camera. It works pretty darn well and trouble free for bounce flash in auto-mode.

 

Scott

[ericamcdonald]

I think if I am going to put a flash on a Leica again it should be TTL. How on earth do you

guys calculate all this and be spontaneously creative? Maybe I just can't think like that

while changing distance from my subject and the aperture when I want. You are all great,

but I think I am too dyslexic to get it, though I really am trying. One thing I want to be

clear on tho...if my camera is set to 400 asa and I set the flash to 200 asa, that's doubling

the output, not acting as fill? If so, no wonder I screwed up so...

[e_b7]

Jorn, I think Matt answered your questions. Also, if one's flash has multiple "auto" (not TTL) settings, one can dial the flash down using, say, f4 when the camera is set to f8, for example, to get the fill ratio. On my Hasselblad 503CW, I tweak the ASA/ISO dial about two stops (faster than my film) so the TTL sensor can produce the 2 or 3-1 ratio. I have the Metz flash set at TTL with the proper SCA adapter. This works great. Nikon matrix balanced fill flash is also great. For my Leica M4 for daylight fill flash, I can set the Metz to the same f-stop as the camera lens (metered for ambiant light), shutter at 1/48, and then close the lens 1/2 stop to compensate for the additional light provided by the flash. If you don't have a flash with multiple "auto" f-stops, use manual power and the distance/guide number calculator dial. Erica, keep in mind that the ASA dial on your flash probably does not control light output directly. You blasted your subjects with full power flash! Live and learn, right? Anyway, I also agree with the suggestion that in low light, use wide apertures, slow shutter speeds and relatively faster film (e.g. 400), so the flash doesn't dominate. The trick is to set the camera for ambient light and then judiciously use flash with a 2-1 or 3-1 ratio to pleasantly light up your subject. As you can see, there are many ways to accomplish this. I wouldn't write off your M7's TTL capability with a compatible flash. My Leica CM works great with TTL fill flash.

[e_b7]

The ASA setting on the camera controls the light meter, and the ASA setting on the flash just enables you to correctly read the distance dial. When using manual flash, neither controls anything. Getting a TTL compatible flash is a good idea, but you don't have to if you read the manual for your flash.

[e_b7]

Looking at a couple of my flash units (Metz 45 CL-4 and Minolta 128), the Metz unit's output is changed when ASA is set, but not the Minolta, as the latter has just one auto mode and a manual mode. I goofed up outdoor fill-flash twenty years ago when I first tried it, and got a book to learn to do it right. Until you get a TTL compatible unit, this will work:

 

Meter scene, set camera at 1/48 and f-stop required for ambient light. Set flash to manual (full power) setting and ensure ASA setting is same as film speed. Read the distance corresponding to f-stop set on camera off your flash calculator dial and stand at that distance from your subject (You can get this distance from focusing and reading it off the lens barrel.) Now close the lens 1/2 stop to compensate for the additional light provided by the flash. Take the shot. This will work, and you won't need to spend any money for now!

 

As for spontaneity, I calculate in advance as much as possible, so this frees me up.

[e_b7]

If no calculator dial on flash, divide the Guide Number by your f-stop for ambient light to get distance. So, for example, for GN 60, and f8 is required by camera meter, stand at 60/8 = 7.5 feet. You can get the flash guide number (GN) from the flash manual.

 

This is probably more discussion of flash than one sees on the Leica forum, but Leicas are as flexible as anything from their corresponding time as regards flash, and flash does have its place. I'm guessing the TTL feature on the M7 works very well.

[george_shihanian]

" but Leicas are as flexible as anything from their corresponding time as regards flash, "

 

"Corresponding time"? she's talking about an M7, not a IIIC...

 

"Flexible" isn't the first word that comes to mind when talking about a Leica M... Sorry, but 1/50th of a second just doesn't cut it for a flash synch speed. Not in 1965, and certainly not in 2005.

[mattalofs]

"Dante's page is about daylight fill flash."

 

There are two articles there; One is about fill, but the other is about flash in general.

 

"How on earth do you guys calculate all this and be spontaneously creative? "

 

It's not as hard as it sounds, and it's really not any harder than TTL once you realize that even TTL requires you to make some overriding decisions at times.

 

Flash isn't my first choice for working spontaneously, but sometimes it's the best option.