Rangefinders vs "heavy" SLRs at slow shutter speeds

[Troll]

I've tried it. Best by far was a Canon F-1 AE (new). Nothing can come close to a Rollei, though.

[jan_brittenson]

My experience is that body weight is a very poor predictor of the effect of mirror slap. My Canon 1Ds2 for instance, is unusable without MLU at 1/4-1/15s with a 300-600 range telephoto, but also shows slight softening even with wide angles at those speeds. Every telephoto image shot will be double imaged in exactly the same way. Lock up the mirror and they're just like you'd expect. Compare this to the R9 where I personally have never been able to detect any benefit whatsoever of locking up the mirror. IMO it simply doesn't need MLU, and I never use it. (Ironically, the Canon which really needs it requires deep diving into custom functions to turn it on, while the R9 has an easy to use switch on the front.) Because the Canon sometimes needs it I tend to use it whenever I can, merely to err on the side of caution. I do most of my shooting with the Leica 19, and sometimes in low light where I shoot at 1/8 or 1/15 handheld stick a C/V 21 finder on it and shoot with MLU enabled. The Canon of course weighs more than twice as much as the R9. It's really a pig to work with since not only is it a huge, heavy monstrosity, but also needs an equally heavy monstrous tripod to block the slap. Not particularily well engineered at all.

[mike_elek]

I don't think mirror slap is as big a factor as the darkened viewfinder. As another post states, being able to see your subject continuously through the exposure should not be underestimated.

 

A simple experiment bears out the importance of vision for sighted people: Stand on one leg with both eyes open. Stand on one leg with both eyes closed. I guarantee that most will fall over within a few seconds when your eyes are closed. This doesn't strictly apply to photography, but it does show that holding a camera steady is tied to our view or lack of it.

[jeremy_tok]

Not just the mirror. The diaphram stop-down function too. An SLR costs me 2 stops.

[frank granovski]

Since I've quit practising TaiChi about 2 years ago, I have to use a tripod for mirror slapping shots. No kidding. Hopefully I'll have a real M buy the end of summer so that I won't have to lug around my tripod.

[tom_bryant]

I agree with Al Kaplan. That SLR blackout makes it very difficult

to hold steady at 1/30th or less. I think it's more of a physiological eye-brain-hand phenomena than simple SLR slap.

 

The SLR slap is important in critical work. Sometime in the 90s, Pop Phot's Victor Keppler ran a column that proved that SLR slap was quite real and could noticeably decrease resolution.

 

My Canon F1s gather dust.

[edmo]

<i>Pop Phot's Victor Keppler ran a column...</i>

<p>

There ya go, well that's that.

[connmenvii]

I really don't think it matters whether it is a rangefinder or an slr. Steady hands are the issue.

I use both in low light situations usually around 1/4 to 1/2 second exposures with no tripod

and they are fine. The color photos are shot on a 20d at 1600 iso, 1/3 second @ f/3.2. The

black and white is shot on a Leica M6, at 1/4 second, f/2.8 on T max3200 rated at 1250.

Both are ambient light, no flash.

[connmenvii]

I can't figure out how to post multiple pictures so sorry for this extra post.

 

-andrew

[blakley]

I'm not sure of the reason, but I can hold rangefinders much slower than SLRs.

 

Example: the other night I was at a banquet, and there was a plaque I wanted a photo of. The room was VERY dark, and I didn't have a tripod. There was nothing nearby to balance the camera on. I shot from 6 feet away, 1/8 second at f/1.4. In the picture, I can read every word on the plaque; a few are a bit unclear but this may be depth-of-field limitation rather than camera movement. When I'm back in a place where I can use my own computer rather than a public terminal, I'll post the picture.

[jan_brittenson]

Andrew, what does your handheld shots look like enlarged to 16x20? That's my normal print size. The images you posted look like they're 3x5 or so on a 100 dpi screen, obviously that size is very forgiving.

[jan_brittenson]

Here's an example of a zero-slap camera, the Mamiya 7. This was shot at 1/2s wide open with an 80mm lens. It's the nightly Brahmin Ganga ceremony in Varanasi, India. If you follow the Sadhu in the foreground, up to the western tourist with a pony tail in front, then up to the Indian tourist woman, you'll notice she has something shiny on her left wrist. That's a watch, and on the film I can read the dials to see when the shot was taken -- that's as far as this lens will go wide open on Ektachrome 200 Pro.<p>

<center>

<img src="http://www.rockgarden.net/download/india/S01558nn-800.jpg" border="8"></center>

<p>

I don't have the full scan on hand right now, but would be happy to post a crop if anyone cares.<p>

The Canon 1Ds2 simply can't do that; apart from lower resolution, it also couldn't produce a tack sharp image at that speed no matter how it's braced. It has nothing to do with blacking of viewfinders (it was sitting on a concrete wall, and I wasn't even looking through it). A heavily weighted tripod could help the clunky Canon, but why bother when there are cameras that don't need it to begin with! Of course, MLU fixes it on the Canon which just further proves its lack of proper counterbalancing on the mirror lift.

[andy m.]

That's quite remarkable, Jan.

[connmenvii]

Jan,

 

The photos are great at 16 by 20, sharp as a tack but of course a little grainy, a look I tend to

like.

 

-Andrew

[andy m.]

Andrew, those are very good shots. I didn't see them initially since they don't diplay without a click.

 

A

[EricM]

"I don't have the full scan on hand right now, but would be happy to post a crop if anyone cares."

 

i'd love to see it Jan, that's be cool. cheers

[robert_clark]

I consistently go back to my SLR's in the hope that I can find a way of shooting them at the light levels that I can use Leica Rangefinders. I can't. It is a mix of unreliable focusing and shake - however it is induced. I find that I can use the Leicas a full two stops slower than my Pentax LX and one to one and a half stops slower than the MX. The MX is lighter by the way, but has a cloth, not a titanium shutter.

 

So from my experience, in similar situations, using mostly wide angle or standard lenses, Rangefinders are much steadier and weight makes no difference.

[farhad]

I understand the theory about the lack of mirror slap being more stable, but I'd like to explore another factor...Using my F100, I find my fingers wrap around the RH grip and shutter button perfectly, this definetely helps me get a more stable shot, because I'm comfortable. With my M6 OTOH, it's just a bit too thin for my hand and I haven't got around to it yet. So don't think you can just rush out, buy a Leica RF and everything's sorted - horses for courses. I could consider buying the RH grip for the Leica, but then the whole idea was to get something compact and not bulk up...