M6 Viewfinder upgrade, just got it back

[desmond_kidman]

5 years ago I was only into medium and large format, but realized for

many situations a 35mm RF would be perfect for me. Quick easy focus

was a must, top optics a must, so I got an M6 with 35, 50, and 90

lenses. What a breeze to focus as I sat in my living room chair

practicing. Then I got tho the real world situations, viewfinder

flare-out just when I had the perfect shot picked out. Over and over

again, trying to move the camera just right to get rid of

flare....the camera just became a headache to use.

 

Took my Mamiya 7 on a trip and realized, when I found myself taking a

sigh of relief when focusing, how much I had grown to hate the

Leica. What a joy that Mamiya 7 was compared to the M6. I had

mentioned the flare to dealers, some Leica owners, nobody really had

any advice. Including all the guys proudly strutting their M6's

around their necks in popular travel spots (worst part of having a

Leica, loking like part of the "right name-plate crowd). Only

reading a note about the improved viewfinder of the M7 got me to

investigate upgrading my finder, here on this forum (I was not a

reader here).

 

DAG did the upgrade, wow, it's now the quick easy focusing machine I

envisioned when I bought it. If I try to get it to flare in the

worst light there is still enough image left to focus, but 99 percent

of the time the focus patch is far better than passable, it's

perfect, with high contrast.

 

My question: Sure it sounds like looking a gift horse in the mouth,

complaining after the upgrade is out, but how in the world could a

company like Leica, with their perfectionist reputation and

accompanying high prices, keep producing such a terrible viewfinder.

Now that I've learned they once had it right before a certain point

in M4 production, I feel they must have known the affect of their

cheapening out on the viewfinder optics. Can it be that they were

just content to sit on their corporate butts collecting money from

folks who would buy the magic red logo and not question the product?

I own 2 different Mamiya systems, 2 Hasselblad systems, 4 different

Linhof systems, and have had other equipment in the past. I don't

think I've ever seen such an important oversight in any fine piece of

equipment I've ever owned.

 

Any owner of "post-good viewfinder" M4 through M6 should immediately

have the upgrade done. It makes a world of difference and makes the

camera a joy to use.

[beau 1664876222]

I've used an M6TTL every day for a couple years now, and I've only had the focus patch flare once or twice, literally. Some people have the problem really bad, others rarely or never. Maybe it's how you put your eye to it or something?

[ronald_moravec1]

had 2 m-6`s since they were new. First flare was last year.

[james mitchell dc]

The early M6s still had good viewfinders. I only had my late M6TTL upgraded.

[terrestrikon]

What's the cost of the upgrade? Thanks.

[Rob F.]

M6 flare is never worse than when doing night photography. The glare of streetlights directly into the finder keeps my Classic in a constant state of flare. I re-center my eye to minimize it. I've been meaning to send it to DAG--this is a good reminder.

[andrew_hall1]

I got the SHADE from Lutz for my M6TTL 0.85 which flared at the slightest provocation. No more patch white-outs now. Waaaaaaaaaaay cheaper and quicker than a finder mod.

[ben z]

I think the internet has allowed a greater number of Leica users than ever before to communicate with one another, so word of gripes and defects spreads like wildfire compared to the old days and Leica seems to have recognized the impact these issues can have on their (dwindling) market. Personally I sold an MP and bought 2 M6 Classics for less than the proceeds, and as long as I keep the rangefinder patch approximately centered in the finder, I have no problem with white-out. It may be a matter of personal sensitivity, or there may be some adjustment parameter that makes some cameras flare worse and more frequently than others, I don't really know. I do know that I'm able to make all the photographs I want with my M6s as-is, and have no intention of spending close to $400 to get "upgrades" for cameras that I don't know how much longer I will be using.

[lawrence_bochkis]

Don't mean to be a pedant, but one of these days soon hopefully I'm going to be getting an M, and I didn't know there was a general lack of quality in the m6 viewfinders.

 

I'm guessing I'll end up buying an m6 or m4, so how much does the viewfinder upgrade cost, and which m4's are the baddies?

[jim_a]

Amando, I hear ya. I had my M6 done a year or so ago by DAG and it made a huge

difference. Now the RF patch is as good as my .58 MP.

[dan flanders]

I've had my M6 since about '90 and have owned several M3s or M2s since and I can't recall any time that I have been bothered by flare with either camera. I use the M6 most of the time and perhaps I just avoid flare prone situations, but if that is the case it is just because I have never been attracted to flare inducing situations anyway. If this is a cop-out then so be it! I almost never use flash anyhow and if I am confronted by a night venue I use the battered M3 because of its clear and brilliant viewfinder -- not for any flare consideration. I really never knew of the flare issue until I started browsing this forum several years ago and I refuse to let it become another paranoia. As a matter of fact, I use my older Barnacks probably as much as the M6 and can't discern any significant difference in the results of my efforts. Bring on the flames, boys, I'm wearing my asbestos suit!

[mark-j]

The viewfinder flare appears to vary from user to user and is more prone to users that wear glasses. I have a pair of M6's. 0.72 and 0.85 and had the finder upgrade done on both. I wear glasses and it is a big improvement for my use. Both were done by DAG and cost about $175.00 per body a year ago. It is a personal preference to have it done or not.

[colin_elliott]

"I keep the rangefinder patch approximately centred in the finder"

 

I don't understand this comment. The rangefinder patch is fixed and it's centred. You can't move it around the viewfinder. I have an M6 (so called Panda)and have never experienced any flare.

[working camera]

I've always had trouble with RF patch flare on the M4-P, M6s (back in the 1980s)and more recently with the early production M7.

 

Patch flare is most usually a problem in bright sunny climates such as you find in most parts of Australia. I had an M4-P in Germany (winter) always high overcast and had no problems. On returning to Australia it was a nightmare. So sold the M4-P and despite a concerted effort to convince myself to get an M6, never did due to the patch flare issue.

 

The problem definitely also has to do with the shape of your head and how the camera sits up against your eye. But knowing this, I still encountered RF flare in some odd situations, at night under bright café and street lighting. It made my new M7 camera virtually unusable in certain circumstances. I sent it back. Eventually ended up with an M7 with MP type finder, which performs similar to my M3.

 

Leica got away with producing cameras prone to RF flare for over 25 years by not acknowledging it. We were all imagining it, until they produced the new MP that is. Then all of a sudden it was a fault in previous modern Leica rangefinder models after all.

[paul_neuthaler]

My 1957 DS M3 -- no flare, no foul!

[Nowhereman]

A lot of people never seem to have experienced the M6 viewfiender flareout: if you shoot

with the sun behind your shoulder or in very even, mild light you'll never see it. But with

the bright light here in Thailand my M6 viewfinders would flare out royally -- to the extent

that one couldn't see either the focussing patch or the lightmeter diode lights; and that

wasn't a function of whether or not you centered your eye in the viewfinder. After the "MP-

type" viewfinder fix by Sherry Krauter the flareout is gone.

 

I took the opportunity to also change the viefinders on my two M6s from 0.72 to 0.85

magnification. With these two changes I would never even consider using an M3 instead of

the M6. The 0.85 magnification is much, much better for 50, 90 and 135 lenses. While the

35 frame is tight within the edges of the viewfinder it doesn't bother me because I don't

use eyeglasses. For the 28 lens I prefer the external viewfinder because the perspective is

much more like that of a 28mm lens than the view through the 28 frame of the 0.72

viewfinder; with 28mm and wider focusing is not critical and can usually be preset.

Incidentally, I find that the Voightlander 28 finder is much better (brighter) than the Leica

one, and the cost is only one-half of the latter.

 

--Mitch/Bangkok

[Nowhereman]

Armando:

 

On your question of how a company like Leica keep producing such a horrible viewfinder:

there is a reason for Leica's current financial situation, and it's because of bad

management. Leica never made the switchover from a production-oriented management

-- which was adequate in the 1930s when the company was producing a product that

happened to be what the market wanted with competition mainly from Zeiss -- to a

market-oriented management that could deal with the much more compicated and

competitve post-World War II market. There is a reason that Leica never sold more than

10,000-15,000 cameras per years while Nikon and Canon sales number in the hundred's

of thousands cameras per month.

[joseph_tran]

My M6TTL rangefinder patch would flare out whenever there is a light source (e.g., light bulb, window) shining from the upper left corner of the viewfinder. Finally sent it in to Leica NJ for the flare fix. Now flare is 90% gone in worst case scenario.

[ben z]

"Mark J. Photo.net Patron, aug 05, 2005; 07:38 p.m.

The viewfinder flare appears to vary from user to user and is more prone to users that wear glasses."

 

I must be doubly lucky then, because I wear glasses and have no issues of flare.

 

"colin elliott , aug 05, 2005; 08:34 p.m.

"I keep the rangefinder patch approximately centred in the finder"

 

I don't understand this comment. The rangefinder patch is fixed and it's centred. You can't move it around the viewfinder."

 

The only way I can make my M6s flare is by moving the right side of the camera farther from my face without changing eye or head position. Doing this makes the patch appear off center.

 

 

"craig hoehne Photo.net Patron, aug 05, 2005; 09:06 p.m.

Patch flare is most usually a problem in bright sunny climates such as you find in most parts of Australia."

 

"Mitch Alland , aug 05, 2005; 11:02 p.m.

A lot of people never seem to have experienced the M6 viewfiender flareout: if you shoot with the sun behind your shoulder or in very even, mild light you'll never see it. But with the bright light here in Thailand my M6 viewfinders would flare out royally -- to the extent that one couldn't see either the focussing patch or the lightmeter diode lights; and that wasn't a function of whether or not you centered your eye in the viewfinder."

 

Wow! My luck is improving by leaps and bounds. I've travelled extensively in Australia and Thailand, shot with the sun at all angles, always kept the patch centered, and never experienced flare.

[furcafe]

Per Rob F.'s post, I experienced the RF flare mostly during night & low-light shooting situations whenever a strong light source hit the VF/RF @ the "right" angle (there's a spot in my apartment where I can induce flare anytime I want). So far I've had DAG install the "fix" in my M6 TTL 0.85 & it has been a help, but not perfect. The camera is still more flare-prone than my M3, but only a tiny bit more "flarey" than my old M2. I think wearing glasses makes the problem worse because it forces your eye away from the VF, making it easier to get your eye off-center; of course, not everyone will be affected the same way due to differences in eyeglass prescriptions & styles, faces, etc.

[desmond_kidman]

Hey guys, not one flame! I thought the Leica forum might be prone to this as we all know how "personally attached" some are about their Leicas.

 

I find it very interesting that some folks have few problems! Guess what? I wear glasses! Maybe the extra distance from the viewfinder makes the problem much worse. I have to tell you, if there was a discreet light source anywhere in front of the camera (light bulb, street light, sun, anything) even if out of the frame, this damned thing would be nearly impossible to focus. Now, I'd bet that only one image out of a thousand would cause me to have to squint to find the ghost image. It's great.

 

I loved this response from one of the posters:

 

"Leica got away with producing cameras prone to RF flare for over 25 years by not acknowledging it. We were all imagining it, until they produced the new MP that is. Then all of a sudden it was a fault in previous modern Leica rangefinder models after all."

 

I now think the Leica is great. I always felt the glass and construction was great. Now, with the fixed viewfinder I love it. But let's face it, as the above poster intimated, they can be a bit arrogant!

[j._mose]

Armando,

 

I have read many of your postings on Hasselblad and have taken your advice on several occasions. I have a very early M7 and do not wear glasses. I do experience flare in the viewfinder quite a bit. When the MP was released with an improved rangefinder/viewfinder, Leica announced that M7 models would also be improvedt from that point forward. Leica also announced that an upgrade would be available for early M7 cameras (and perhaps other models as well). I wonder if DAG is performing the exact same upgrade that Leica has available? As I recall, Leica quoted me a figure under $300. I will have to investigate this! Thanks for your posting, as I needed the reminder. Take care and enjoy!

 

Regards,

 

J. P. Mose

[desmond_kidman]

Hey, thanks for the nice words. I've found a lot of Hassey misinformation out there, most folks don't seen to have the experience with all the lenses but like to talk about how theirs is the right one....I was fortunate enough to use them all, found profound differences, and wanted to post that info. Glad someone read...

 

As to whether the viewfinder is the EXACT same thing, the guy at DAG, as I recall, told me that there was some small part inside that was either not possible or too expensive to upgrade, but all the other parts were the same. He said that it was the exact same upgrade as Leica uses when they upgrade, but DAG was a bit less expensive and I felt I knew who would have my camera in his hands, I had him on the phone, so I sent it to him. BEST money I ever spent!

 

I have to say, I have an inordinate number of photos that I am pleased with from the little Leica. I could never warm up to 35mm slr after so many years with MF and LF, but the Leica really seems to be an extension of my vision, as corny as that may sound.

 

Thanks again.