Soo... Why should we hire you?

[photoreu]

Hey everyone,

 

I'm curious to hear how you'd all respond to this question. What are

your "selling points," what makes you different?

 

Is it your personality? style? unique artistic vision? service?

product?

 

I'm especially curious to hear from those who are in the upper end of

the market. How do you convince someone that they should spend 3-5x

as much on you vs. someone else.

 

I know your work should sell it's self but I've discovered there are

all sorts of clients and different things are important do different

people. I know this is very broad - but let's hear some ideas and

some stories about how you got that contract signed!

[stacy]

I have a story of one that almost got away. We had several meetings with a couple- a big wedding- very interesting and they needed alot of time, albums- etc. We really wanted to do shoot this wedding- it was very unusual and the clients were really cool! So finally the bride called and made a deposit- we were so happy. Then later that night the groom called Mary back and said his parents wanted to go with someone else- he was so sorry- it was an issue of money. I called him right back- told him we really wanted to do this wedding and it was not just a money issue. We offered to come to the wedding and just shoot candids all day for the cost of the deposit ($500). No albums or anything- but all the photos we took...he was very surprised. Some how he was able to convince his parents we were worth the money and we got the contract- for the full amount-plus alot of extras. Enthusiasm saved us :) That's such a happy story...

[todd frederick]

Reuben,

 

I'm not trying to avoid your question, but I'd like someone to tell me the difference between and "upper-end" market wedding and, I guess, a "lower-end" market wedding, and whatever falls in the middle. Is it just the amount of money charged or is there a difference in the quality of the images produced, or something else, like marketing techniques, the size of the products produced (albums and prints), reputation, venue location, level of artistry (see Gaetano's thread on "Amateur vs Professional..." thread below) or what?

 

I think this has something to do with how we promote ouselves.

 

Regarding your question: I've been consistently photographing weddings for 15 years, but I would not place myself in any of those categories. I have come close to photographing high-end weddings, but I do not advertise myself as such and I don't turn down weddings if the clients like what I do. Most of my weddings come through referrals and personal contacts. I am not a studio and I don't advertise.

[todd frederick]

I'd like to respond to Stacy's comments: As I mentioned above, I have photographed some high-end venues, but when a client comes along and cost is a genuine issue, I do whatever I can to work out a plan that meets their budget and also provides a good coverage of their wedding. For me, that kind of flexibility is important.

[stacy]

Todd- that's nice of you. But you do business much differently than I do- no albums and I think I recall a few posts where you encourage people to get their proof books at the drug store. It costs me alot of money to cover a wedding. I use very high end products- the best I can find- plus a very good lab- plus there are two of us shooting. This is not a socialist society- we don't decide our prices on an individual basis based on that clients yearly income. I can charge whatever I like and if enough people are willing to buy at that price I'll be successful- if nobody wants to buy then I won't be in business very long. For what it's worth I would not consider my price to be high end in very many markets

 

It's like going to buy jeans- the ones you want are $60...but you only have $20. It's your choice- do you look for cheaper jeans or find the other $40- it's up to the client- how much do they want it?

[bruce_rubenstein]

Take a look at this article in Kodak's Pro Pass, <a href="http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/member/ProPass/magazine/V305/williams.jhtml?id=0.2.14.10.356&lc=en">Seven Ways to Attract Higher-End Clients</a>

[eoghan]

Good article, thanks.

[jaimie blue]

Stacy I really love that story because yes of course everyone has to earn a living but that shoot was about the passion and not just the money. That client understood that it was about the passion and was smart enough to know that you were the absolute right photographer for that wedding! Cheers!

[todd frederick]

Stacy,

 

I guess it has a lot to do with your targeted market and your financial goals that determines prices and services. I am guessing that most of your income is derived from photography, and that you operate a studio with a few employees, and that you're are heavily involved in post wedding sales. It's a business and that's the way you have to operate it.

 

My involvement in wedding photography started in 1989 and was always a side business since I was a career public school teacher. I also did not have the time to devote to high-end albums and display enlargements. I decided long ago that the middle class and those barely getting by in life had the right to good wedding photographs and I targeted that genra of clients with no regrets. I charged fees that would provide me with a nice profit for a day's work, but nothing I could live on as my sole income. My services included the photography, good quality proofs, a proof album (economical Pioneer brand) and the negatives. I found a niche that is comfortable for me. I'm certainly not saying that anyone should be socialistic in pricing, but there is a place for those of us who want to do good photography for persons of middle and lower incomes.

 

For you, and Mary, and Marc, and Nancy, and many others on this forum, and my personal friends in this business, my way is not your way, and that's Ok as far as I'm concerned. You all need to earn a living. I just want to suppliment my other income and enjoy the experience.

 

I would still like to explore what the differences are when we use the terms High-end compared to middle and lower budget wedding services. Is it the venue (locations, size of wedding, etc.) or is it in the services we provide (what we want sell and the fees involved)?

[kevin cook - stratford upo]

In the UK it certainly isn't the quality of the photography.

I've seen charges at ?495 producing as good photographically as those at ?3,000. Albums of Italian Leather at ?1800 helps the price along!

Story books and hundreds of proofs all add up and the UK is more formal than US with reception coverage quite low. Bride's home to the reception start usually.

 

You look at prices here at ?2000 and they are simply persuading clients to part with more - on high profit and largely not needed extras! Do you really need an Italian album handstitched by the finest Italians from the hides of the finest Italian cows? Who would know (and indeed who does since EU law allows for country of origin to be left blank?)

 

Maybe the US is different.

 

You definitely don't get what you pay for. Am I getting cranky in my old age?

[photoreu]

Todd I think you bring up some valid points - and I do agree with you and think there is nothing wrong with what you are doing, it is very kind and generous. As you pointed out, however, it is not a way to earn a living with photography as the sole source of income.

 

To answer your question, though.. I think the difference between a high-end, middle, and lower, unfortunately, is mainly about the $$. Whatever rate you book at will determine what bracket you fall into.

 

This is not always directly related to the quality or products received by the client, but I think it would be the determining factor if we're going to put people into different tiers.

 

Your question is actually conducive to mine, I'm trying to figure out what DOES make a high-end photographer worth the extra money... and while I have a pretty good idea, I'd like to hear what others have to say. I've had the opportunity to meet and work with several higher end (more expensive) photographers in my area. So far, I've seen that they are (in no particular order):

 

1)GENERALLY better photographers. I dont want to start a war, I know there are PLENTY of amateurs that could shoot circles around most pros, but for our purposes here, I'd say a $3000 photographer is, on average, better than a $900 photographer. (More consistent exposure, lighting, better composition, less likelyhood of catastrophic equipment failure - they should have plenty of backup gear, include an experienced, better paid 2nd shooter, etc)

2)More experience - better able to flow with the wedding day rollercoaster

3)More sure of what they need to get and what it will take to make it happen (they'll get the shots)

4)Product. Simply put, nicer albums and display prints.

5)Service - you have to provide waay above average service

6)Personality. Quite honestly I think this might be it. The SINGLE most difining trait of a "high end" photographer. They have this persona that declares "I'm worth it." They are confident (often cocky), fun to be around, and simply someone most young couples would actually enjoy having at their wedding.

 

This is in no way a comprehensive list... just random thoughts off the top of my head. One guy I know was trying to book a 1 hour wedding, he charged the guy $1500 with a high-rez DVD of all the images, no proofs. When the groom objected to the very high price he had to sell the groom on what made him worth it - His artistic vision, his years of experience, and his name. He made a comparison to cars: You could buy a kia or you could buy a BMW. Both get you from point A to point B, one does it with considerably more style, more power, and more luxury than the other - and that is why it is worth the extra expense. The guy booked with him the next day. (And the photos were awesome).

[stacy]

Thanks Jamie!

 

Todd- I am certainly not saying anything against the way you work. I am only pointing out that there are differences in the way we work and the way we do business. They are both valid and both of us have customers. When I got married 5 years ago we eloped- just the two of us. There is not a single photo- which I regret very much. 5 years ago all I could find in my area were very traditional photographers and I didn't want photos of me gazing off someplace. I would've loved to have found a photographer to give me about 10 B&W prints in a nice album. That could be a niche for somebody- I've tried to sell it but none of my clients are eloping. So there's an idea for somebody...

 

There is a lot of room for different ways of working- styles-products- etc in wedding photography.

[stacy]

Oh- I forgot to say that I agree with you Reuben.

[todd frederick]

Reuben,

 

Forgive me if I am getting off the topic of your question by getting into this High, Middle, and Low End wedding issue, but I'm interested in this and it may have something to do with how we present ourselves. Perhaps I should post this as a separate question.

 

You asked for a few stories. Let me give you a few:

 

1. In my area there was a photographer who advertised "budget weddings." The rate was around $600 to $800. However, HE did not shoot the weddings, even though he told the clients he would do so. He hired photo students from our local college for minimum wage and occasionally touched base at each wedding. A very good friend of mine photographed a few of these weddings for him and told me a few choice horror stories. One involved no photographer showing up for the wedding at all. That, to me, is the worst of the low cost wedding scams. I don't do that...one wedding, one day.

 

2. I shoot a lot of film. The wedding I photographed last Saturday involved 500 exposures and my friend was photographing with me as well. Digital seems to encourage me to over shoot. However, when I worked for an upscale, full-service studio, I was very limited on how many photographs I was permitted to take (no guest requests or extensive candids) even if the B/G requested such...It's alsways "NO!" The rule was: "If it won't sell, don't take it!" I mentioned this previously, but while working at the studio I took ALL of the Vietnamese bride's requests since I know that their culture is family oriented and wants a photo of each guest with the bride and groom. I was almost fired for doing that, but was redeemed when the bride bought $9,000 in reprints for her family in Vietnam. I got no commission, of course. To me, that up-scale studio had its priorities missdirected.

 

3. I booked a mid-end wedding that turned into a high-end wedding, and, instead of being justly compensated for the on-site add-on's, the client tried to nickle and dime me to death for even more extras and prints. My son planned to attend to help, but could not make it. The client demanded that I pay them for his dinner. I refused. This was all medium format by the bride's request which added to the cost.

 

So...these rating levels have me confused, especially with pricing. I also hate these "Diamond, Sapphire, Jade, Pond Rock, and Dirt clod" pricing packages we often see in brochures. I think every wedding is different and fees need to be negotiated.

 

How many of you would buy a house or an up-scale car without trying to get the best price?

[todd frederick]

Stacy,

 

Thank you for your kind comment. Hey, if you can get $30,000+ for a wedding shoot, go for it. I think good photographers deserve it.

 

I simply found a type of wedding photography that suits my lifestyle and my objectives, and I make no apologies for it. I think there is a market, with a decent day's profit, for $1,000 weddings (not including post sales).

 

I love the idea of ten fine B/W prints in a nice album for a couple hour's work. I think receptions can be photographed by guests anyway. I would love to just photograph for a few hours, with a nice small album of my own creation for $1,500. You gave me a good idea for a new direction. Due to some arthritic problems (getting old sucks!) I need to down size my business anyway! 12 hours on my feet is a killer! (^O^)

 

Blessings.

[steve_levine]

If they don't like my pictures. I have my "sales associate" Lucca Brassi, hold a gun to their heads till they sign.

[bruce_rubenstein___nyc]

You're shooting a higher end wedding when:

 

- It's Black Tie

 

- There are over 200 guests

 

- There are live musicians (Not a garage band)

 

- There is no tip cup at the open bar

 

- There are no obvious drunks

[todd frederick]

Bruce...no more needs to be said!

 

I've got to pick up my new tux (one of my clients owns a mens store and she always gives me a tux when I do a job for her family...is that high-end, or what!).

[timcorridan]

each wedding photo most of the time consists of a subject and a background. if you can get great backgrounds, like a $4000 a night reception hall, vs. a $500 a night community center, than your photo's will,(hopefully) improve drasticaly. it's tough to be artistic in $500 venues. isn't it easier to let your creative juices flow with a place that has a grand garden, giant white columns, and ambient lighting to die for. so wednsday i plan on visiting 2 churches in my area to drop off a flyer and my card to offer 2 lucky broke couples a "cost" wedding for experience and portfolio pics. there are 10 churches in my area. i have visited 8 of them. i picked the prettiest two. why? someday i wanna be both, an excellent wedding photographer, and make the most i can.

[anner]

I don't have that problem yet because no one is spending 3x-5x more on me. My

affordability is what attracts couples, my style is why they sign with me, and my

personality is why they recommend me. I don't try to convince anyone of anything.. either

they like what I have to offer, or they don't. If I find that a lot of people stop liking what I

have to offer, than I need to figure out what isn't working and make some changes.

[blueform]

Hi Reuben,

 

if three photographers present their work to a client, assuming their work and prices are similer the guy with the selling /closing skills will always come away with the deposit and contract on the day.

 

Presentation and selling skills are a key issue maybe this might open an area of discussion that would benefit all.

 

Jmaes

[todd frederick]

Anne,

 

what you said is what I like to do.

 

James,

 

I have a story for you: Usually we are in some stort of competition with other photographers. A few years ago I booked a wedding via a referral from a bride who recommended me to her girlfriend. I went to visit her girlfriend and here fiance and I immediately told them that my style is documentary with formals and that I generally do straight photography and avoid crossprocessing, tilts, cheezy poses, and such, and showed them many samples. However, they wanted crossprocessing, tilts, cheesy poses and anything else unusual or weird that the photographer could think of. They went with the other guy. I don't do what I don't want to do, so I let it go, rather than attempt to do what I can't do.

 

About a year later, I talked with my original client, and they gave me all the ritual kudos about my services, and told me that the other couple they referred just received their photos (a year late) and it didn't contain even one of the "creative" photos they demanded.

 

This business is totally unpredictable.

[stacy]

There were some guests leaving the other night before the reception- after the bride said good bye she mentioned how rude it was to RSVP for dinner and then leave. It was $140 a plate...300 guests...$42,000 for dinner. When you look at it that way photography seems like a bargain :)

[todd frederick]

There was a wedding I photographed for a teacher friend's daughter about 15 years ago in Monterey, and he wanted to add soup to the entree, but the soup cost $6 per plate @ 300 guests. At $1,800 for soup, he declined and that was about 15 years ago.

 

I Look at it this way:

 

After the wedding....the flowers fade, the dress is never seen again, the cake is gone, the food goes where used food goes, and the only lasting tangible memories are the images...photographs and video.

 

That's an awesome responsibility for the photographer, and, that is something every couple should have even if they can pay only $800 or $8,000.

 

I think that on every economic level, the photographer should give the very best images possible regardless of the fee.

 

I have three photos from my mother and father's wedding (they only took three with a view camera in the 1926), but that is all I have and they are important to me.

 

I think that our clients, rich or poor, would agree with that.

 

Right now I am reviewing about 500 digital images I took at a wedding Saturday. I did not charge a large price for the wedding. I now consider the family friends, and I photographed all three of their daughter's weddings, and will get referrals.

 

These are all digital captures and I have a lot of work to do with them. I also print my own proofs to get what I want. This takes time as well.

 

I don't want to just rush through them and give them my second or third best effort because I did not get $3K or $30K for the job. I give my best for a $1,000 wedding as I would for a $5,000 wedding.

 

But, that's just me.

 

I am attaching a photo I took at Saturday's wedding of the father of the bride at the reception with his grand daughter, the flower girl. This was done with an Olympus E-300 (not fancy) with the kit 40-150 lens in available light at 800ISO. Thank all of you here for your suggestions on using available light with digital and thanks to my friend who helped me at the wedding.

 

This photo is NOT ART and is not intended to be. It is a photo that may have great value to the family in years to come. To me, that is so much more important.

 

Blessings.

[todd frederick]

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