Photoshop Color Problem

[david.bryan]

Hey,

I have photoshop CS, and everytime I finish a picture and try to use the "save for web"

function (even at full output). The color is totally ruined, and not at all what i wanted to turn

out like. I have photoshop set to adobe RGB 1998, but i don't know much about color

settings. Look at this screen shot I took and let my know if there is anything i can do to solve

this.

[jpursley]

The image needs to be converted to sRGB before going to 'Save for web'.

 

I make a duplicate of the master file before doing this to ensure I don't accidentally convert and overwrite my master (Adobe RGB 1998) file with the sRGB version.

[photomark]

David,

 

I noticed from your screenshot you are using a mac. Converting to sRGB is not going to

make the preview in the 'save for web' window look any better, but it is good advice. What

is happening is that the 'save for web' preview is ignoring the profile of the image and just

using the raw numbers. As evidence of this, if you were to convert to your screen profile

and try save for web it should look the same--but don't do that for anything you plan on

using. What you should do is convert to sRGB and save it with the icc profile--there is a

check box for this. What will happen is pc users using a browser that is not aware of

profiles (is IE up to speed on this yet?) will use the raw numbers (which should look ok

since sRGB is based on average pc monitors), but mac users using safari will take

advantage of the profile and do the conversion. In other words, just ignore the preview.

Once you save the image with the icc profile, open it in safari and it should look good.

[donald_l_fackler_jr]

I use windows and found that all I had to do was change the profile for save for web. I use Adobe1998 and don't convert to SRGB before saving. There are 4 options, just change them to get the proper one.

 

Hope this works.

 

Don<div></div>

[david.bryan]

OK i did what was suggested. I converted the photo to SRGB then "save for web" and checked

the ICC profile option. It did'nt look very good on the preview, but I uploaded it and it looks

good on safari. Maybe somebody could tell me how it looks on their PC. -thanks

 

http://www.photo.net/photo/377246

[Ray House]

I tried, but was informed the "Photo doesn't exist!"

[peter_berger]

Two suggestions.

 

(1) Don't use "save for web". If I understand correctly, save for web strips out color

profiles. Just save it as a jpeg using "save as".

 

(2) Unless you have a compelling reason to use otherwise, do all your work in sRGB instead

of adobe RGB. If your pictures originate on a digital camera and their primary destination

is the web, there is no good reason whatsoever to add adobe RGB to your work flow.

Others' opinions may differ, but that's what I think.

[photomark]

Regarding Peter's point no. 1, "Save for Web" gives you the option to include or strip the

profile. I like the save for web option because it allows you to save settings and results in

smaller file sizes in my experience. Unlike the regular photoshop save, it leaves out the

preview image which saves a few bytes as well.

 

One often overlooked feature it the small menu marked by the triangle near the save

button (on the mac in version 8, above and to the left). This discloses a menu which allows

you to change the view options. If you change it to document color you will see the image

interpreted with the color profile which should look exactly like it does in photoshop. You

can also preview standard mac and windows views to estimate how the image will look on

either platform in a profile-unaware environment.

[Uhooru]

Save for web strips certain image data that gives some web sites and browsers difficulty, such

as here at Photo.net. I also believe that same for web changes the profile to sRGB. Try taking

one of your adobe rgb 98 files, save for web, then open that image and check its profile. See

if it isn't changed to sRGB.

[eugene_scherba]

People don't understand basics of ICC color management. When saving

for the web, <i>you always want to convert to sRGB</i>. It does not

matter whether you strip the sRGB tag or not. The raw numbers in the

image are still going to be interpreted the same way by 95% of all

client browsers. sRGB is supposed to represent the color space of an

average uncalibrated monitor (including TVs, since sRGB uses HDTV

primaries), and expect most of your readers to use uncalibrated

monitors. The image <i>must</i> be converted to sRGB and not to

AdobeRGB nor to AppleRGB nor to YourPrivateFancySchmancyRGB and nor

to any other

RGB in existence. That is because 95% of the web is <i>not</i>

color-managed. The remaining 5% is the Safari browser on the Mac

which

<i>is</i> color managed, but when saving for The Web, you always aim

at the biggest number, not 5%, otherwise what is the point of The

Web? I recommend everyone here <a

href="http://forums.robgalbraith.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=365485&an=0&page=0#365485">reading

this</a> (somewhat long but informative) thread on this topic, which

basically answers the same question.

[digitmstr]

PS allows you to pick the OUTPUT of the you converted files. For WEB it *must* be sRGB, that's the standard and I can assure you it will continue to be for a long, long time.

 

As for the SAVE FOR WEB vs SAVE AS options: there are some sites, including this one, which do not allow the xtra tags PS places in a file when using the SAVE AS option, hence in these cases the SAVE FOR WEB is the ONLY option. It also strips all EXIF data, etc...

[david.bryan]

I changed the format to sRGB then kept the ICC profile. and saved for web (the reason I save

for web, is becuase that's the only way i can get it to post on photo.net). So if somebody

could take a look at the pictuer and tell me if it is at all like the original (from the screen

shot). thanks<div></div>

[eugene_scherba]

<p>David, how did you "changed the format to sRGB?" There are two menu options in Photoshop, "Assign Profile..." and "Convert to Profile..." and they do two very different things. Which one of these did you choose when you "changed the format?"</p>

 

<p>Now, <a href="http://www.photo.net/bboard/image.tcl?bboard_upload_id=25904484">the image you uploaded to this forum page</a> looks identical to <a href="http://d6d2h4gfvy8t8.cloudfront.net/3772463-lg.jpg">the one you uploaded to your PN portfolio</a>, both on the web and in Photoshop. When I open them in Photoshop, with both images I get the "has an embedded sRGB profile" greeting, so both appear to have the profile attached. Nonetheless, they look the same.</a>

 

<p>I have two screens, one hardware-calibrated LCD with Windows and the other uncalibrated CRT with Linux. On both screens, the colors look more saturated than in the washed-out image to the right of the screenshot you posted above. Hovewer, I see none of the crazy deep-green color you had on the left version of the screenshot image. Although profile conversion with "Perceptual" intent does make the colors appera slightly less saturated, I doubt it would cause such a large shift.</p>

 

<p>So I open both images in Photoshop, then, just for the hell of it, assign AdobeRGB to them, even though the program warns me that the embedded profile is sRGB. Now we are talking! The images look as green and saturated as the left version in the screenshot. My guess is that you are not <i>converting</i> the images to sRGB but <i>assigning</i> sRGB to them, though I may be wrong. If that is the case, just so that you know, you have to <i>convert</i> to sRGB before posting on the web.</p>

[eugene_scherba]

What I am getting after I <i>convert</i> your image from AdobeRGB (in spite of Photoshop telling me it's sRGB!) to sRGB can be seen below:<div></div>

[david.bryan]

ok I looked at the image you uploaded and that is the color I want, and the color I had before I try to save for web. So I would guess your right. I'm not converting the profile. Please tell me the way proper way to do this. (i think i was doing from the menu image>mode>change profile). So thanks alot for the responce it was very helpfull. - David

[eugene_scherba]

<p>Every time, before you save for the web, you should select

"Convert to Profile..." from the menu and then choose sRGB as the

destination profile. In Photoshop CS2, that's Edit->Convert to

Profile..., in previous versions, I think, it was found in

Image->Mode->Convert to Profile...</p>

 

<p>This operation is called, not surprisingly, "converting to a

profile," not "changing the profile." One could change the profile

too, if she wanted, by selecting Image->Mode->Assign Profile..., but

that would lead to the image data being interpreted incorrectly.

When an image is <b>converted</b>, all its RGB values are

recalculated to appear the same way under a different profile. When

a profile is <b>assigned</b>, no changes to the RGB values are made,

only the profile is changed. The first option ("convert to") is what

you always

want, unless the image and its profile were mismatched previously,

in which case you would <i>assign</i> the correct profile to the

image.</p>

 

<p>The reason the colors appear flat when the sRGB profile is

assigned to an AdobeRGB image is because AdobeRGB (see attached

graph below) has a much larger gamut than sRGB, especially in the

greens. What is, say, Red-100 Green-230 Blue-60 in AdobeRGB, should

be something like Red-106 Green-251 Blue-65 in sRGB for the colors

to appear the same way. To see how much larger AdobeRGB is, take a

look at the graph below. Most monitors, expect for two $5000 puppies

from Eizo and NEC, can't even approach AdobeRGB in their native

gamut, therefore sRGB is a much better descriptor for most monitors,

which is why it should be used as destination profile for the web.

Keep AdobeRGB as your working space, however, because a lot of

printers can print colors that are found in AdobeRGB but not in

sRGB.</p>

[david.bryan]

ok i followed all the steps, Converted the Porfile to sRGB, and put my work space to

AdobeRGB, then i used the save for web and checked the ICC profile. So tell me if i've got the

color you got when you uploaded it. It looks good on my mac. Thanks for the help.

[eugene_scherba]

<p>Nope, this is still AdobeRGB. It looks washed-out in Mozilla browser. If this were true sRGB, this wouldn't happen. </p>

 

<p>Try the following: Make sure in "color settings" box in Photoshop you have "Ask When Opening" checked for all scenarios. Then open the image you just uploaded in Photoshop. Say "Discard embedded profile (don't color manage)" on open. Then assign sRGB and AdobeRGB subsequently to the image. (Image->Mode->Assign Profile). The image should look washed-out in sRGB and correctly colored in AdobeRGB.</p>

 

<p>If what you are getting is different from what I described above, then either you are doing something wrong or your sRGB.icc/AdobeRGB.icc files are corrupt or replaced with one another. To check that, try the following:</p>

 

<p>Download the attached sRGB and AdobeRGB color spaces and install them on your Mac in place of your current sRGB and AdobeRGB icc files. Note that there may be two directories with color profiles, one used by Photoshop, and the other by the system. (May not be true on the Mac, but that is what I have on Windows).</p>

 

<p>Next, do what I outlined in the second paragraph. Then check the file in several browsers (not just Safari). If you experience is not consistent with mine, then maybe there is a green demon sitting in your computer and a support call to Adobe will expel it ^)</p>

[eugene_scherba]

next file.

[photomark]

I'm a little confused by Eugene's last response because none of us <i>know</i> what the

image it supposed to look like other than David. I would like to warn, however, that

opening an image in mozilla or any other non-icc aware application is not a good test for

much of anything, let alone suggesting that one's icc profile is corrupt. The statement <i>

The raw numbers in the image are still going to be interpreted the same way by 95% of all

client browsers</i> is not quite true. They won't be interpreted the same way by any non-

calibrated

monitor. A more correct statement (assuming that 95% is close) is that 95% of browsers

will be a complete mystery and can not be counted on except for those that exactly

conform to the average that the sRGB space was designed for and the only way to get your

monitor to exactly conform to anything is with hardware profiling. In a non-color-

managed environment the RGB number are just sent to the

monitor for all practical purposes and it is anybody's guess how they will look. This is,

after all, why we have hardware profiles.

<p>

Now, when I download the image and open it in photoshop photoshop tells me it is tagged

with the sRGB profile and when viewed within that color space it looks good to me on my

calibrated system. But remember, I don't <i>really</i> know what it is supposed to look

like. If I choose to view it in a non-color managed environment it looks washed out as I

would expect because of the gamma mismatch since I'm using a Mac

[david.bryan]

alright lets try this again. It looked the way you said it would when i changed the profiles. So

here is the file, ill check it my self too. thanks<div></div>

[david.bryan]

Ok well i checked it and it dose'nt look any better...so thanks for all the help i will review the

comments, and see if i can solve the problem myself. But thanks everybodyd for trying. -

David

[eugene_scherba]

<p><i>I'm a little confused by Eugene's last response because none of us know what the image it supposed to look like other than David.</i></p>

 

<p>Well, I <i>do</i> know what the original is supposed to look like. How do I know it? David told me! Look at the original screenshot David posted, then look at the first file uploaded by me. The file I uploaded is untagged sRGB, and David says it looks OK on his system. Then, I assume, this is what he wants it to look like for any viewer who views it online.</p>

 

<p><i>I would like to warn, however, that opening an image in mozilla or any other non-icc aware application is not a good test for much of anything</i></p>

 

<p>This statement is ridiculous. 95% of the people who view our photos online do not use color management. So, this is a test to see how an image looks like without color management. Believe it or not, this <i>can</i> be tested. Even though there are variations across different monitors, the statistically average uncalibrated monitor is not far from sRGB gamut.</p>

 

<p><i>let alone suggesting that one's icc profile is corrupt.</i></p>

 

<p>Well, David coninuously posts images that look slightly off, even though he states he converts them to sRGB. What gives?</p>

 

<p><i>The statement The raw numbers in the image are still going to be interpreted the same way by 95% of all client browsers is not quite true. They won't be interpreted the same way by any non- calibrated monitor.</i></p>

 

<p>Well, I said <i>browsers</i>, not <i>monitors</i>, haven't I?</p>

 

<p><i>A more correct statement (assuming that 95% is close) is that 95% of browsers will be a complete mystery</i></p>

 

<p>No, 95% of the browsers won't be a mystery. The browsers will simply display images in monitor space or whatever space the Windows display profile is set to.</p>

 

<p><i>and can not be counted on except for those that exactly conform to the average that the sRGB space was designed for and the only way to get your monitor to exactly conform to anything is with hardware profiling.In a non-color- managed environment the RGB number are just sent to the monitor for all practical purposes and it is anybody's guess how they will look. This is, after all, why we have hardware profiles.</i></p>

 

<p>Then maybe we just stop right where we are and put a large box on our web-pages requiring every Joe or Jane to buy an Eye-One? Well, you know what? One of my displays is hardware-calibrated with Eye-One Display 2, and the other is not. And guess what? At 5000K, they both are pretty much even except for very subtle grey gradients where the calibrated one beats the off-the-shelf one. The difference between the same image in AdobeRGB and sRGB, however, is HUGE!</p>

 

<p><i>Now, when I download the image and open it in photoshop photoshop tells me it is tagged with the sRGB profile and when viewed within that color space it looks good to me on my calibrated system.</i></p>

 

<p>Well, good for you. It looks good enough on my system too, but it does not conform to the screenshot original.</p>

 

<p><i>But remember, I don't really know what it is supposed to look like.</i></p>

 

<p>Then why the hell are you writing all this?</p>

 

<p><i>If I choose to view it in a non-color managed environment it looks washed out as I would expect because of the gamma mismatch since I'm using a Mac</i></p>

 

<p>Set your Mac to Gamma 2.2. All the web is at 2.2, Gretag's EyeOneMatch sets all displays to 2.2 by default. There is no reason to use 1.8 when outputting to the web unless you are targeting Mac users only.</p>

[peter_berger]

This entire thread is basically Exhibit A for the "Why You Should Always Work In sRGB Unless

You Have a Really, Really Good Reason Not To" article that I will write someday.

[eugene_scherba]

You can write your article Peter, but the way I see it, it is "one never learns color management unless one actually does it."