djwillis Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 Hi all. I have recently figured I can make a few bucks on the side doing the 2nd photographer thing for weddings. I have been into SLR work for several years and have worked on events type things at college (year book etc), and have done several weddings as a secondary photog for friends and family. I am a technical guy by trade, so, am right into the gadgets and the toys -- and how to suck out the pleasing picture -- and I love the art of photography as it is a release of the heavy workweek load...I figured this might be a way to pay for more cool toys! :-) So, my thought was to try and get an assistant job, but it seems that photogs want someone to make a career out of this work rather than a weekend P/T type job...so I thought for a while and figured why not "Freelance"...Ie. offer services/time for free and then charge by the print/negative sold (I would do this as digital work, so would sell the print or digital file)...so this to me sounds like a great deal for couples...get a second photog for free without and pay as you go for photos. I am of course very keen to stay out of the photogs way and see my opportunity as one to cast a photojournalistic view on the wedding (I have done this type of shooting at several weddings already)... I have some questions: 1) Would this shoot for free as a backup and sell prints/photos work? Any thoughts? 2) What obligations would I have under licensure and tax laws to do something like this? Of course I would desire to be legal in every way possible... 3) By shooting for free I am essentially volunteering my time....this would I assume come in as a simpler contractual obligation to the couple. 4) I would not want to upset official photographers or the couple, hence would be courteous and polite, and let them get the "prime" shots if a two shooter situation arose...In addition I would always communicate with the hired photographer in advance...to make sure that everything is fine. 5) Charging for prints...I have several ideas on how to do this, but, regarding price, what would be a reasonable price for a 5 x 7 and an 8 x 10? 6) Overall, good idea? Bad idea? My goal is to pay for some new lenses and other equipment ( I really want the 100-400mm L zoom badly for outdoor work, but can't pile $$ into it right now)....I have film and digital 35mm canons, with 24mm/f2.8, 50mm/f1.8 and 85mm/f1.8 new prime lenses which I feel work well and have allowed me to get comparable photos to the pro's at previous events...Infact, at a recent friends wedding they wanted the files of all 500 of my shots...and ended up using one of them in the newspaper announcement...I was chuffed :-) as was the father of the bride... Appreciate any and all feedback on this matter....from newbies as well as pro's...I'm interested in doing this to improve my skills as well as to learn and make a little $$ on the side for new equipment....this is not a "big money" venture or future career...<div></div> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimstrutz Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 I don't think it's going to work. Most wedding photographers will not allow another professional photographer to shoot the same wedding. Most of the time they will be trying to sell prints to the bride as well, and any shots you sell to her will just represent less for the him/her. However, if the photographer was planning on including negatives/files of all images in the package sold to the bride, and this was paid for up front, the photographer *might* not object. You would have to pay federal taxes on earnings, and possibly state taxes as well. Also, you may have to collect & pay sales taxes, and probably get a business license. Reasonable prices for a 5x7" and 8x10" print are $0.69, and $1.79 at Costco. How much you can charge is too variable to guess. Overall, I think it's a bad idea, but if you can make it work, go for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djwillis Posted June 30, 2005 Author Share Posted June 30, 2005 Jim, Thanks for the response...I really appreciate the input. What I find fantastically interesting with wedding photogs can be summed up in the following analogy: The pro photog is like an outside farmboy. The cow belongs to farmer A. the farmboy comes to the farmer, and says, pay me to milk your cow. Then once the cow is milked, the farmboy sells the milk to the farmer...now if I were a farmboy analog, I'd be the farmboy that milks the cow for free and sells the milk, or gets paid to milk the cow and gives it to the farmer... What amuses me greatly (and you are right) is how inflated and proposterous wedding photography has become...and much of the time, I being a (serious) amateur can grab more of the "we like that shot" type comments than the pro gets... Regardless of my copmment, Jim, I really appreciate your input and would be interested to hear others points of view...but am not too hopeful right now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce_rubenstein Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 David - I know of at least one wedding photographer who won the Pulitzer Prize while he was a White House press photographer, and there are many wedding photogrers whose fees start at 5 figures. You're beginning to sound a little silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry_ Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 "What amuses me greatly (and you are right) is how inflated and proposterous wedding photography has become...and much of the time, I being a (serious) amateur can grab more of the "we like that shot" type comments than the pro gets..." Shooting a wedding involves handling people, situations, lighting, and managing time. (Serious) amateur photographers are in the learning stage...not the best idea in the working world to 'test' out your learning curve at someone's wedding. The bride, the bride's parents, and the groom expect very good results, not the photographer's expectations of "this is art." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tana_minnick Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 You wanted different point of views - so from a brides point of view, I would not at all be interested in having some (amatuer)guy hanging around my wedding, taking pictures and hoping to sell them to me. That's what the pro photographer is for. Not only that, I would think it would be extremely annoying and distracting to the hired photographer and wedding party. My 2 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
photoreu Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 David, Overall? Very bad idea. Sorry.. but it would never fly w/ 90% of the pro photographers out there (my estimate). All the photographers I know have it in the contract that they will be the sole photographer. Most pro photographers I know are very helpful and nice people, great to work with, and good at what they do. I don't understand why you think you couldnt 2nd shoot part time... All that's usually involved is a Saturday's worth of shooting. AND... You certainly can't expect to come into a wedding photographers forum, bash the profession, and then hope to get lots of helpful replies. Your analogy is as bad as your idea. Sorry. Hope you have your flame suit on. Reuben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anner Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 For your financial sake, it's better to collect money up front than to rely on an unspecified amount of print sales afterward. After the wedding brides are less excited about everything and can drag out the ordering process for much longer than you'd like to invest time into. You'll also have to consider how you're going to display the images? Will it be on a website- in which case they'll just drag and drop them to their desktop and email them to everyone? After the wedding, most of the money is spent, and the reality of HOW much money was spent hits them like a ton of bricks. You have to ask yourself.. would it be worth it to shoot an entire wedding for free and not get a single print order? When brides feel they are getting something for free.. they don't value it nearly as much. I have another suggestion that might work better and be more fun for you... try shooting local bands in local bars and coffee shops and then hand them a card to check out your pictures online and purchase pictures from the show through your website. More often they are the ones in need of "professional" quality photos but can't afford professional pricing... but perhaps when they see your amazing photos, they'll want a few for themselves, and maybe they'll even hire you to do their promotional band shots. Good luck David! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djwillis Posted June 30, 2005 Author Share Posted June 30, 2005 Sorry all...Dumb Idea...and very poor analogy and low comments. This I am extremely apologetic about. Thank you for taking the time to reply...some very good comments and valid remarks! Appreciate all the suggestions. I apologise to those who I have.may have offended with my analogy. Not professional or smart to say that...and uncalled for..in retrospect I do sound a little (lot) silly! I'll try some work in lighter gigs/pt work where it might be more appropriate for me to shoot and sell on afree basis. Thanks again for all the replies, and sorry for the analogy comments! It was wrong and my bad! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukas_kisiel Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 <i>"AND... You certainly can't expect to come into a wedding photographers forum, bash the profession, and then hope to get lots of helpful replies. "</i><p> Exactly! What are you trying to do? Do you really think that professional photography is all about spending 6-10 hours photographing happy people? Anybody can take nice pictures. Unfortunately, that's only a very small part of running a photo business.<p> <b>"I'm interested in doing this to improve my skills as well as to learn and make a little $$ on the side for new equipment....this is not a "big money" venture or future career... "</b><p> You should be honest about that with the brides you meet. I wonder how they will react... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djwillis Posted June 30, 2005 Author Share Posted June 30, 2005 Again, I'd like to reiterate how silly my earlier comments were... my sincerest apologies...it was uncalled for and cowardly to say what I said... I take full responsibility for the comments and completely understand those of you who are upset...it was not right to say what I said...and I said it in a moment of rash judgement/writing... Apologies to those of you who do a great job! I feel very foolish andknow that I should! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukas_kisiel Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 Hey, David, photo.net is a great place because we're all are free to say whatever we feel like saying! Don't get discouraged to speak your mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djwillis Posted June 30, 2005 Author Share Posted June 30, 2005 Pawel, Yes, you are right...but with regards to my earlier comments, speaking one's mind carelessly without tact and thought is poor practice and poor judgement (something I should work on when in a forum environment). Careful communication and proper criticism at the correct time/place is much more appropriate and likely to make this a better place for all. My frustration isn't directed at the community of people trying to help me or the wedding photog community in general...so why should I act like it is? Point Is ... I shouldn't. Infact...the people who I think are poor representatives of this business are probably the same people you guys also think are poor representatives, and tend to make your jobs harder (why shouldI double punish??? I'ma dummy sometimes). I think many photogs should command great rewards for their work, and kudos to those of you who do great work and make a good business of it-- I just thoughtlessly mouthed of about them in a wrong and stereotypical manner (and they represent maybe 2-5% of the photogs out there). I was out of place/line...and should really have kept my mouth shut...you don't come and critisize my field of expertise, so why should I come and mouth of at you folks about something that wasn't completely correct... I was completely wrong to express myself that way, I should and will be a little more careful about what I say in the future. Thanks for the comment back, but I stand corrected and apologetic... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
photoreu Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 What Pawel said. Photo.net is a great place. Apology accepted, no harm no foul. Sometimes it can be hard to judge what a person is like based on a post in a forum. I'm sure you didnt have any malicious intnet. Seriously though, look into second shooting for a local photog. You can actually make decent money doing this (enough to fund gear purchases anyway) although pay does vary widely depending on who you work for. I work full time, have 2 kids, and still manage to 2nd shoot an average of about 3 weddings a month.. (and a few on my own). At least you're thinking up ideas and trying to make something happen for yourself. A lot of people dont even get that far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
photoreu Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 Missed your last post. You are right. There are photographers who are BIG jerks. Just do your best to ignore them and move on. There are more nice photographers out there than mean ones. Surround yourself with happy people and be happy :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djwillis Posted June 30, 2005 Author Share Posted June 30, 2005 R:- Thanks for the reply. If you have suggs. on how to get a 2nd fotog position I'd be happy to hear them. I've tried, but they often don't take me as seriously since I don't want to make a full time career of my photography...but would love to do it part time indefinately... The current thought with the suggestions from this thread would be to drop the wedding idea entirely, with good reason, and attempt to do bands, bars, local sports, kids league soccer/baseball/basketball etc. (I feel that kids leagues is harder to do since I'm not sure if parents would want a stranger photographer taking pictures of their kids...maybe I'm too cautious)...same idea...shoot for free, sell the prints...this might be a nice way to do it, andI don't care overly if I don't sell a print after a full afternoon of shooting....it is the learning that counts to me... I also thought of pet photography, and the likes on the same basis (ie. shoot for free, sell the prints : smugmug.com or similar type of setup)...Maybe that'd be a good way of starting off and perhaps through that I could network into a 2nd/assistant type position as P/T work?... Thanks for your understanding... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
photoreu Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 Well all I can tell you is how I got started 2nd shooting. I found the guy I liked the most in my area and e-mailed him. He didnt reply. So about a month later I e-mailed him telling him I was serious and to please reply. He called me back about 5 minutes later. We met the next evening, and I shot a wedding with him that Saturday! I think it largely depends on the photographer obviously. The other guy I work with I met at a local pro photogs meeting. I was standing next to him and he mentioned he was looking for a good second shooter (talking to someone else).. so I immediately introduced myself and have been shooting with him ever since. I will say though, that if you're not really interested in a career as a photographer, to do as was suggested. Photograph things you're interested in, have fun! You dont want to ruin your hobby by doing something with it you dont like just so you can make a few bucks. Kids sports I think is a good idea. From what I've heard though you'll be hard pressed to sell prints unless you can print them right there. So get yourself a little portable cart/computer/printer setup.. shoot away.. you'll have a crowd gathered with people ordering prints right away I'm sure. You'd of course have to do it the right way and clear it with the league or organizer of the event.. plus be set up as a legitimate business. But anyway, have fun with it! Maybe get a solid set of work together with a certain theme, whatever that may be, and then look into listing it with a stock agency. There's lots of ways to make money with photography. Oh and as far as photographers not taking you seriously. Dont be dishonest by why not leave out the part time thing? Although, I'd think most photographers would be happy to hear that because that'd mean you arent future competition! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picturesque Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 Like others, I doubt your idea will fly with the professionals in your community. Most larger urban and suburban areas have photo studios who use independent contract photographers to shoot weddings for them. Unless you are in an extremely small community, you should be able to locate some (or go to a larger community). I'd be persistent until you at least are able to meet with the owner or manager of one or two. They may be willing to give you some training and most are perfectly happy that you have another job and source of income as they cannot provide you with a main source of income. As an independent contractor, you will not have to get into the marketing or sales end of things and therefore won't have to deal with sales tax etc.--just personal taxes having to do with your status as independent contractor. You would not be personally selling prints or any other tangible thing...just shooting the wedding and handing over exposed film (given to you by the studio) or files. This would seem to be the ideal situation for you considering your major goal is to make a few bucks on the side to fund equipment purchase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_sokal___dallas__tx Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 David, I'll tell you how I found someone to assist: right here on PN. I have a very well paid day job but love photography of all kinds. After doing a wedding for free as a gift, I decided I'd like to learn more and maybe find a new way to earn some bucks just like you. It would certainly make it easier to explain the weekly deliveries from B&H to my wife. I started participating in this forum and was looking at a website a member had asked to be critiqued when I realized after looking at some of his weddings, he was in my town. I e-mailed him and while he didn't need a second shooter, he knew someone who did. I've now done 4 weddings for the second photographer, the first for free and the rest for $200 a show. I've improved tremendously and while I'm not sure I'd ever become a fulltime wedding photographer, I feel like I'm gaining the skills to do so if and when I quit my day job (still have four kids in college so that's at least three years away). But anyway, ask around on PN and try Digital Wedding Forum. They have a bulletin board for people looking to assist and people looking for assistants. (Hey Mary, why don't we have that?) Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medina photography cherry Posted July 1, 2005 Share Posted July 1, 2005 "What amuses me greatly is how inflated and proposterous "...Doctor fees, Lawyer Fees Property tax, price of fuel, tolls, cars, housing, clothes, food, college, Camera equipment, insurance, healthcare! My suggestion to you is to move out of Mommy & Daddys house and go into the real world and see if it is too inflated and proposterous then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medina photography cherry Posted July 1, 2005 Share Posted July 1, 2005 Sorry, I did not read further down,I did not se that you apologized and I was to hot from that one statement. I apologize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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