zeos_386sx Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 There is a piece of polished carbon fiber attached to my computer case. It is a really beautiful material. Quite a while back someone in the Leica forum suggested its use for Leica camera bodies. Could a camera body be made of carbon fiber? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack_fisher1 Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 The Toyo 45CF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelly_flanigan1 Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 Glass is added to Polycarbonate to add stiffness; and is used in camera bodies. Some camera parts from the 1960's and 1970's use this material; and later entire bodies have been made from it in the 1980's and 1990's. It is not cheap. If machined the glass fibers become exposed; this can cause wear; ie the film rail area. Adding glass is done with other plastics too; it adds stiffness; adds cost too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vivek iyer Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 In principle, any fiber is stronger than plastic. So fibers (various origins, some plastic, some glass, some even natural) are put in a mold and the plastic ('prepolymer') is added to it and polymerized to get the final molded plastic (encased fiber) component. The earliest versions of these were called "fiber glass". A misnomer. Carbon fibers are some of the strongest materials used today. These are much stronger than steel. Carbon fibers themselves are made from baking (at very high temeraptures and in the absence of oxygen) of a suitable polymer (plastic). Some very special high strength concrete has carbon fiber in them. These are much stronger than steel reinforced concrete that is normally used. High scrapers like the Petrona Towers has some of this type of concrete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCULUS New York Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 I think the answer might be: The cost increment far exceeds the limited weight/strength benefits over alloys and it's hard to work with (especially the bonding). It's all those gears inside that are the principle weight of a mechanical camera. And besides, aren't we the guys who crave bricks made out of brass and glass? Cheers, Ray Hull Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edward_rehnquist Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 A carbon fiber body would be very nice, but it would add a lot of manufacturing costs and headaches. The raw material cost is one consideration. Second, carbon fiber is used inconjuction with a resin. Basically you create a mold of the camera body, place woven pieces of carbon fiber into the mold (looks like black fabric) then close the mold and inject resin (basically liquid glue). After heating the resin hardens and in the end you have a light and strong camera body. Also adding to costs, the number of reject bodies would increase as compared with the metal based ones. The main problem I think would be mating the lens mount to the carbon fiber (CF) body. It's difficult to put metal and carbon fiber based parts together. If the lens mount is made of CF and the lens is make of metal, there will be wear problems on the CF mount. I could see having a metal internal frame and external CF body. Something else to think about, CF doesn't have spectacular impact strength. I think it makes a lot more sense to make the larger cameras like 4x5s and 8x10s or panoramic 120's like 6x12 and larger out of CF. All in all it would be cool but I wouldn't drop money on one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeos_386sx Posted June 24, 2005 Author Share Posted June 24, 2005 Thank you for your very informative answers. Another question crossed my mind after my original post. How would carbon fiber react to the inevitable perspiration/acids from a shooters hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huw_finney Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 The carbon itself wold be inert, the epoxy matrix may, depending on formulation, react. CF would make a cool replacement for vulcanite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy_tok Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 <img src="http://www.artlite.net/store/gif/dunhill/ad2000ftn.jpg"> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johns1 Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 Zeos, AND c/f has the additional advantage of being more expensive than any metal. Yes, lighter and stronger (pound for pound) but also a significant, additional layer of complexity in the factory. Ask any person in the aerospace industry about their travails in the shift to carbon fiber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terry_rory Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 This is not a new idea (just the materials change) I still have ceilings in my home that were made with horse hair mixed into to plaster (house built around 1908) it is extremely stable and tough. Hundreds (even thousands) of years ago a mixture of cow s**t, mud and straw was packed onto a 'woven' lattice made from wooden strips. The straw and the lattice gave great strength. I am not sure if horsehair/plaster or straw/mud/cows**t bodied cameras are a good idea though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james_.1 Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 Hmn, I don't think most M buyers would like the idea of space-age material constituting their bodies (although some like the Ti finishes). Plus, brass has some nice heft that steadies the shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eliot_rosen1 Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 Carbon fiber is used in some tripods to provide strength without providing additional weight over metal. However, I don't think this is required for Leica camera bodies. Even though the current Ms are not made as well as the earlier ones (M2s and M3s), they are still likely to outlast their owners and remain functional. Where is the need for additional strength? In fact, there are many M cameras with dents and dings of various types that are still happily working away. Your average Leica M is likely to outlast film, so why carbon fiber? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeos_386sx Posted June 24, 2005 Author Share Posted June 24, 2005 "Your average Leica M is likely to outlast film, so why carbon fiber?" - Eliot Rosen Just because it looks so nice.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vivek iyer Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 If Leitz ever makes it to the digital (SLR especially) market, the use of CF instead of metal would help them with light weight lenses, particularly the long ones. Not much is going to be accomplished (in terms of weight reduction/strength) for a camera body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nemeng Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 I've used a <a href="http://www.acecameras.co.uk/asp/web/recorprod/1/product/10346/cat/1426/ph/cat/keywords/recor/1/SearchFor/PT_ID/1/product.asp">Manfrotto 449 Carbon Fibre Monopod</a> for a few years now. It's incredibly strong and v.light.<p> This is the huge advantage of CF, a strength to weight ratio that metals can only dream of. The downside is that it has almost zero high temperature performance. So it's great for things at room temperature (like tripods etc.), but useless for jet exhaust nozzles etc.<p> Use it for a camera body? Except for perhpas making the camera too light to hand-hold steadily, why not! The little "M-grip" Leica sells is made from CF, so it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to make the whole thing out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerry_lehrer Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 I have spent over 50 years in Aerospace Engineering, primarily in stress analysis and materials engineering. I am amused by some of your misconceptions regarding the material properties of CRP. BTW, they are materials of choice for tripods because of their high STIFFNESS-to-weight ratio. Not strength-to-weight. Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awahlster Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 I got a friend who makes carbon fiber model airplane propellers that will with stand 35,000 rpm on a 8" diameter prop. They have metal centers and he does this at home in his little workshop. He sells them to people all over the worl=old for competition. He says he has about 1 failure in 30-35 pc. they each take about an hour of his time that includes all mold prep laying of fabric resin mixing and hand pumping the resin into the mold. The rough blade then takes approx an hour to finish depending on the type. A factory could squirt out carbon fiber camera bodies with near zero failure at an amazing rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icuneko Posted June 25, 2005 Share Posted June 25, 2005 <horsehair/plaster or straw/mud/cows**t bodied cameras> Trevor, are you designing the next round of a la carte Leica choices? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nemeng Posted June 26, 2005 Share Posted June 26, 2005 Jerry, I'm hardly alone in talking about CF's "strength-to-weight" ratio.<p> Have a look at the following google link and be prepared to write a lot of people a lot of pedantic notes pointing out the error of their ways...<p> <a href="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=carbon+fibre+strength+to+weight+ratio">www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=carbon+fibre+strength+to+weight+ratio</a> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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