FinePix S3 Pro or Canon EOS 20D?

[zenphoto]

Hi there, I mainly shoot portraits, fashion and glamour but I am

slowly getting into wedding photography too. I am switching to

digital and I need some advice for a camera. Without considering my

pre-existing equipment, which of the 2 (FinePix S3 Pro or Canon EOS

20D) would be better for the kind of photographic subjects I do? I am

looking for the equipment as much as professional for portraiture as

possible on a budget. Another small question... Will the 12Mp give me

better chances for stock photography as well? (I know they start

being picky about resolution).

 

 

Thanks in advance, Tony

[nick_breedlove1]

The 20D is a lot more camera for your money. Especially with the rebates they've got going now. The S3 is great (I had this camera too). Fuji rating their S3 at 12MP is kinda false though. It's through interpolation that you get those 12megapixels. It's the same as going into photoshop and upping an image until you get a 12megapixel file, except the camera does it internally. It's kinda like some subwoofers are rated at 500 watts, but you only end up hearing 200 watts of sound...Fuji always overrates their cameras.

[rich_taylor____mequon__wi]

The S3's claim of 12Mp has more to do with extended dynamic range than image resolution. When shooting RAW in "wide" dynamic range setting, the image is essentially a 6Mp image in terms of resolution (maybe a bit more), but you are expanding the contrast range that the camera can process, up to a maximum of two stops. This can be very useful in many portrait situations where models are wearing white, or in situations that offer contrast challenges, such as white gown, black tux. The downside is that to shoot consistently in that mode uses a lot of memory, and it's a bit sluggish in writing the files.

For an event such as a wedding, it's useful to shoot the formals and portraits in full mode, and then do the faster-paced reception in fine jpeg.

 

I like the S3, and I especially like the skin-tones it achieves with little or no post-processing. I just shot an outdoor wedding in bright sun, and (with the help of fill flash) was very pleased with how the S3 responded.

 

I don't know enopugh about the Canon cameras, so I can't compare, but I wanted to address the 12Mp question. BTW, If I were starting from scratch (I own a large inventory of Nikon lenses, so the S3 was my upgrade w/o spending 5K on the D2x)), from all that I've read and heard, I'd be giving Canon a real hard look.

[scott_carlsson]

I agree with Thom Hogan. <i>For the money, we expect more camera</i>. The extended

dynamic range and 12Mp isn't enough to make it worth anywhere near $2500.00. It's still

a morphed Nikon plastic body too. I own the S2 Pro, and it wasn't worth what it

cost new either. I paid $1000.00 used, and it's a fine camera for that amount of money,

and still more than holds its own in terms of pure image quality.

 

 

Fuji, for whatever reason, just doesn't get it. The 20D is the clear choice.

[awindsor]

The S3 Pro got hammered at DPReview mainly on cost.

 

I think the extended dynamic range is extremely attractive and with the cost of cards these days 80 shots on a 2GB card is not a big problem. However the speed of writing in Wide mode is a problem that could lead to missed shots. 3 shots in a burst and then it drops to one shot every 11 seconds. For portraiture the extended dynamic range is very attractive and the downsides of the Super-CCD are unlikely to appear. It really is a great sensor (it is the camera, the software, and the price that leave something to be desired).

 

There is very little to pick between the Canon 8 MP CMOS and the Fuji 6 MP Super-CCD in terms of resolution.

 

The Fuji offers a better spot mode than the 20D and individual channel histograms.

 

If you are shooting outdoors then the relatively slow flash sync speed of the Fuji could be a problem.

 

I have a 20D. For portraiture the Wide mode may give the edge to the Fuji but the 20D is a much more flexible camera.

[paul_sokal___dallas__tx]

I have a friend who shoots stock nature and they won't take anything less than 8MP and so he switched from Nikon to Canon since Nikon's best was 6MP at the time.

[peter_phan]

Don't believe Fuji's 12mp claims. It's not really 12mp. That claim is primarily a product of fuzzy math and clever marketing. If you're expecting 12mp of resolution, you'll be disappointed. It's more like 6 or 7mp. Go with the 20D. It's a better camera, it offers 8mp of true resolution, and it's $1000 less expensive than the S3. Put that monetary savings towards some high quality lenses for your 20D. After all, getting a good camera is only part of the equation. You'll want to put some good lenses on that good camera.

[wickedmartini]

"Don't believe Fuji's 12mp claims. It's not really 12mp. That claim is primarily a product of fuzzy math and clever marketing"

 

Not true. If you understood the technology you would realize why this is not an issue of "fuzzy math."

[peter_phan]

Michael, yes, there is a basis in fact for their 12mp claim (the use of a large 'S' pixel with normal sensitivity and a smaller 'R' pixel sandwiched in between the 'S' pixels to pick up highlight info-- the camera can then combine the information from the 'S' and 'R' pixels to produce an extended dynamic range and avoid the loss of detail due to over-exposure). But it's not really like having a true 12mp sensor, so it's a bit misleading. And image comparisons of the Fuji S3 at its "12mp output mode" compared to the 20D looks like a poorly interpolated image from a lower resolution camera: <a href="http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/fujifilms3pro/page21.asp">http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/fujifilms3pro/page21.asp</a>. You get a larger file size but you don't get more detail or better detail. Look at the third image from the top, particularly the radiating "sunlight" lines on the label...they are broken up and jagged in the S3 sample, compared to the smooth lines from the 20D. You can also see this stair-stepping jaggedness in the second-from-the-bottom image sample along the label's curve line under "Irish", compared to the smooth curve from the 20D.

<p>

For my money, I'd go with a 20D, or even an 8mp Rebel XT, and upgrade to Canon's next generation prosumer DSLR body when it comes out (probably by February 2006). But for now, 8mp of resolution from a DSLR like the 20D or XT is good enough for portraiture and stock.

[rmdavis]

Interpolation is absolute crap. The quality at 6 mps is actuall worse than at 3mps. My first digital was an s5000. Not a terrible camera, but certianly not what it was advertised as. Certainly not a 6mp. Also, it suffers from constant vignetting. Although I have no experience with the S3, I certainyl wouldn't trust Fuji with my money again. I am currently saving money for a new 20D.

[scott_carlsson]

<i>But for now, 8mp of resolution from a DSLR like the 20D or XT is good enough for

portraiture and stock.</i>

 

 

 

More than a few of the big stock houses will NOT except 6-8Mp SLR images, or even 12Mp

images from the D2X. They want full-frame SLR images, being the Canon 1DS or 1DSMKII,

SLR/n, or higher Mp digital back captures.

 

In other words, if you're thinking about breaking into stock with your 20D, forgetta bout

it.

[awindsor]

<i>Interpolation is absolute crap. The quality at 6 mps is actuall worse than at 3mps. My first digital was an s5000. Not a terrible camera, but certianly not what it was advertised as. Certainly not a 6mp. Also, it suffers from constant vignetting. Although I have no experience with the S3, I certainyl wouldn't trust Fuji with my money again. I am currently saving money for a new 20D.</i><p>

 

I am no Fuji apologist but comparing a 3 MP $250 point and shoot to a 6 MP DSLR is comparing apples and oranges. The 6MP SuperCCD in the Fuji S3 Pro does produce more resolution than a regular 6MP camera but much more importantly it does produce significantly more dynamic range (provided you take a RAW and process it using 3rd party software on the computer). There are annoying funny SuperCCD artifacts. <P>

 

Every camera not using a Foveon sensor performs interpolation to produce an image. Fuji have no choice but to produce a 12MP image in order to fit their twisted CCD array into a rectangular array. Even the 6MP images pass the the 12MP stage and are then downsampled.<P>

 

I am not at all certain that the twisted SuperCCD design is worth it but the extended dynamic range is an interesting technology which other manufacturers should definitely be looking into. <P>

 

By the way I shoot a 20D.

[rmdavis]

The s5000 was significantly more than $250 when I bought it, but I do understand your point. A fixed lens "downscale" camera should not be compared to a "real" SLR. I certainly didn't expect my camera to perform on the same level as systems that cost $2500 plus, at the time.

 

My beef is with Fuji's marketing practices. I guess I was the perfect market demographic for what they were trying to do- familiar enough with photography to lay out some cash for a better than basic camera, not familiar enough with digital photography to properly research my purchase before hand.

 

The layman (and that is me) expects a 6mp picture to have better resolution than a 3mp picture. Though other systems may use interpolation to produce "bigger" files/images, does this actually degrade the quality of the image below its smaller counterpart?

 

My point is that I consider Fuji to engage in, at best, questionable marketing; and at worst deceptive marketing practices. Thus I am unlikely to lay out any singificant money on fuji equipment unless I have the chance to thoroughly investigate it hands-on, as in borrowing a friends machine for a few weeks.

 

Additionally, I don't feel like rewarding Fuji with more business after what I consider a misrepresentation on their part. Just because a consumer isn't a pro, or can't afford/doesn't need the highest level of equipment, does it follow that they deserve to get screwed?

[awindsor]

I am honestly suprised that you found the 3MP super CCD images worse than 3MP regular sensor images. I have never owned a Fuji camera but I have a friend with a FinePix that he is very satisfied with and all the reviews have noted a slight resolution improvement over regular sensors.

 

The marketing available now seems to distinguish between MP and interpolated MP but I see that it could be confusing.

 

Apparently Fuji has decided to dispense with storing the interpolated files for their 5th generation SuperCCD HR so it will be interesting to see the results.

[rmdavis]

Alistair,

 

I am not comparing image quality between different types of sensors, but image quality on the s5000 between its 3mp setting and 6mp setting. I would imagine that the newer fuji's 9like the 7000) have solved the problem. Let's jsut say that Fuji didn't do much with the s5000 to create customer loyalty. At least not with me. the resolution of the 3mp picture on the fuji is actually quite good, and other than the vignetting, colors are good, etc. Its just that the vignetting is a big problem.

 

Then again, everyone's first foray into anything usually goes a bit wrong, no? At least now I have a better baseline with which to evaluate my next purchase.

 

By the way, Are there significant differences between sensor technology used on nikons and canons? Have you had the chance to compare them?