stephen_f Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 I have been doing wedding photography for little over one year, and photography in general for about 5 years. I did a wedding a month and half ago, and groom picked up photos, spoke with him later, said everything was great. But, he just calls me out of bloom and wants rights to all his photos, because he said I failed to take one photo of him and his bride alone at wedding alter. I'll grant him, I didn't get that photo, but he recieved more than double the photos he was promised, they look awesome (according to me and other clients I have showed them too), plus, I specialize in wedding photojournalism, and I do necessarly do alot of formal photography. I took lots and lots of candids, as well as couple shots of them outdoors. SO they DO, have photos of them together, I feel they are just out to get something for free. I asked him otherwise if he thought I did such a horrible job, and he said "no" I did a good job, but I didn't fufill my duty all the way because they didn't get their formal shot, and they want compensation. Just to note, I lived up to our contract, which was to photograph an event from such a time to such a time, so I believe I covered that. I just think it's weird that he waits a month and a half after he gets his prints and tells me their good when he gets them, to tell me he wants all his photos on CD with rights to make copies because of this one photo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rich_dutchman1 Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 You don't owe him anything. You could tell him you do not offer refunds, but you provide reshoots for portraits. If it's that important to them, they can put their clothes back on and meet you at the church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen_f Posted June 20, 2005 Author Share Posted June 20, 2005 They did give me a list of formal photos they wanted at the wedding, (it wasn't in the contract) but still, we were doing shots that were not on the list, we were looking for people, then their limo came, and they had to go and I followed, so in the mist of everything they missed a shot. I did offer to do a shot again with formal lights but he said no, because he didnt want to spend 2000 on his brides flowers again. What flowers cost 2000????? Should I do anything to keep this cival? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rich_dutchman1 Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 The last point is important - they had to go. Not much else you can do. Thank him for hiring you and wish them a happy marriage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
todd frederick Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 I don't like to work from lists, but I do ask the bride and groom to make a list of important, must-take, formals and have a family member check it off. After the formals are finished, I ask if there are any other photos which need to be taken in the church, very so all can hear. I usually get a few more requests from that. I ask this numerous times to the B/G and main family members so all can hear. I have had two instances where a photo was missed (a family reception photo that I did not know about). The couples were trying to get some free photos or refunds. This kind of thing does happen. Do not refund any money. If you want referrals from this couple you could offer to do some post wedding portraits. At one wedding there were some bride and groom photos which I did not like, so I asked them if they would redress in wedding clothing and we took some more portraits at a park a few weeks later, and those were beautiful. I'm photographing her sister's wedding on July 9th, and got another referral from her! A little flexibility goes a long way. If you offer something to compensate, a truly descent groom (or bride) should be pleased with that. Otherwise ignore it. You have no legal obligations in that regard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david j.lee Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 chances are you are not geting any orders from them anyway. offer them what they want for a very "special" price, only if they promise not to tell anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmichaelc Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 Offer them a formal session w/ discount. If this is too much of a hassle for them - just refer them to your contract and explain how you fufilled it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picturesque Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 Sounds like he's just looking for an excuse to demand cents off and wants to see how far he can get. I agree with some of the above posts--offer to do a re-shoot at the church for that one pose, but don't give any other concessions. If you do, you could damage your reputation as he'll tell others and you'll have other people doing the same thing to you. Also it opens the door for him to get even more out of you. As for the flowers--get two or three fake long-stemmed red roses. They look great in photos. I'd even offer to re-rent his tux for him but I doubt that he will actually go for the re-shoot since it seems obvious what he really wants is a big discount. If you're handy with Photoshop, you could even offer to take an image of the two of them and put them in front of the altar scene. You can just go to the church and take a picture of the altar. I'm betting he won't go for that either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen_f Posted June 20, 2005 Author Share Posted June 20, 2005 Your answers have all been good thanks. I wrote him an email explaining I fulfilled my duty by photographing his wedding from 8-1pm. I also offered him 100 in reorders and a free future photo shoot. DO you think that is fair, I haven't sent the email yet. This is just so frustrating. I give every wedding 100 percent and one shot and someone calls you pissed and wants freebies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rich_dutchman1 Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 No, it's not fair to you. I wouldn't offer anything but the reshoot, with your standard proofing only (no prints included). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen_f Posted June 20, 2005 Author Share Posted June 20, 2005 I agree with you rich, but I'm young (21) and just getting a start in this business and don't want any problems. I have brides drive all the way from Chicago to book with me, then I get this guy trying to get freebies. I offered him it already, then told him in the email, talk it over with your wife, "it is very fair" and thats all i can do about it. think that works? What would you do if he calls back again demanding the cd, or thats not a fair compensation I didnt get what you were supposed to get in the first place. he's already told me what other photographers he talked to do different. This is so much bull. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil vaughan - yorkshire u Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 You know that what he's saying is bull, we all know that we all work slightly differently, so there's no fear in 'other photographers have said'. You fulfilled your contract and you are offering some compensation for his (unjustified) hard feelings. Stay calm and focussed, and when he see's he's getting nowhere he'll find someone else to bother. Some people are just like that, don't take it personally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
think27 Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 For future - Here is what I put in my contract: <p><em>All attempts will be made to obtain photographs indicated in the Wedding Info Sheet and to follow details of same. Any circumstances beyond photographers control such as missing persons in a group photo, lack of time, lack of cooperation of a given subject to be photographed, wedding guests or video people obscuring view of subjects during important moments during ceremony, processional, etc., camera failure, battery or flash failure will be re-shot whenever possible.</em> <p>In this case - I think it depends largely on how large your community is. You can't afford to have unhappy customers. It is possible you might have to bite the bullet and offer them a small form of compensation. I'd give them 5-10% off future orders and offer to re-shoot the "formal". So - she won't have her flowers. But I'm sure you have plenty of shots where she does have her flowers.. I think it is crazy for them to be upset over one shot...Especially an alter shot formal. I don't even offer that shot except under extreme pressure and that is usually from an old fashioned Mom...not the couples. All my couple shots are outdoors in natural light. <p>Good luck.. and don't let them get to you.. You get more with honey then vinegar.. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picturesque Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 I'd be surprised if he declined your offer since he's getting what he wants--freebies. I wouldn't have offered the $100 in reorders, just the reshoot for that one pose--no others. As I said above, you may be doing the opposite of keeping your good reputation, since he can now tell everyone how he got the better of you. Now make sure you have a clause in your contract about not guaranteeing any shot, even if on a list, if circumstances don't allow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen_f Posted June 20, 2005 Author Share Posted June 20, 2005 I am definately adding that clause. Like I said, I'm just trying to make everyone happy. But from now on, I'm gonna be extra careful. I could see if i F-ed up there whole wedding, yellow pics, bad exposures, but one pic, your right, he is after the freebies. thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
todd frederick Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 Mary, that is very good. I'd like to add that to my ever evolving contract! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_h.1 Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 The wedding shoot contract was completed under the doctrine of substantial performance. It arises often in service industries and in construction and custom manufacturing. People don't get a free house just because their builder made a minor deviation from the contract. You don't get to keep a photographer's copyrights because one shot in an entire wedding is missing either. Mary's clause looks excellent at first glance and some quickly embraced it. Read it again... The second sentence is seriously flawed. If read without the such as list, it would read: "Any circumstances beyond photographers control will be re-shot whenever possible". Read literally, you would be obligated to re-shoot the circumstances. Read broadly, a client could demand all sorts of undesirable remedies. Hoping a court would interpret it as something you meant to say is not a sound practice. It might also be striken as a non-sequitur for not making any sense. It needs to be re-worded all together. The second sentence also says it limits itself only to things beyond the photographer's control. There's a huge opening for a client to claim that circumstances were within the photographers control whether they were or not. The loophole needs to be closed. The second sentence also contains a list of things that are arguably within the photographer's control. Internal conflicts within contractual languge can cause serious chaos later. Two very minor points... 'Best efforts' is a somewhat better legal term of art than 'all attempts'. It is interpreted to mean substantial good faith attempts and is less demanding. 'Including, but not limited to' is also a little better than 'such as'. Some authorities treat them the same. Others read 'not limited to' to encompass things beyond a list of like examples. The words 'such as' cannot be interpreted that way. I hope this wasn't drafted by a legal professional. If so, a second opinion is in order. As usual, this is not legal advice. Consult an attorney for legal matters. (Don't rely on legal info from the internet whether its from me or even esteemed moderators ;)) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_levine Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 I hate to toss a wrench into the gears but, why in God's name didn't you take a shot of the B&G alone on the altar at church? This is a big time "no brainer" on your part. Have you ever looked at wedding album's before? I have never seen any book of wedding pictures without this shot, sorry you dropped the ball. The B&G alone should be your focus at a wedding! Each time you start a set of formals begin with this shot and add people to build groups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anner Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 First off, the reason he wants right to ALL the images is because they can't choose which ones they like the most. I'd give him the rights/high res copy of his 3 (or whatever # you find fair) favorite. Otherwise, I'd tell him he can buy the rights for X amount of money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen_f Posted June 21, 2005 Author Share Posted June 21, 2005 I have exclusive rights to all the photos, negatives, cd, etc. Its in my contract he signed. As for the drop the wrench, ... They do have alot nice couple shots outdoors. I don't do traditional formal photography. I do photojournalism. So, the formals was something extra I was incorporating in there. They do have pics together. It's one formal shot. We could re do it if he wanted to, but he is being unreasonable. I think he is out for freebies. He told me he liked everything, then month and half later he calls me with this demand. Whatever the case, I fufilled my contract by being there. Plus I offered to give him 100 in reorders just to be professional, and courtesous. I think thats more than fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_levine Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 ""I don't do traditional formal photography. I do photojournalism."" In the future, make sure potential clients understand this beforehand. Angry clients are not good "word of mouth". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen_f Posted June 21, 2005 Author Share Posted June 21, 2005 They did understand, as far as I knew. All my advertisements say what I'm about, and they seen my work. After this, I wouldn't want their referral anyway. Their just one sneaky couple, out of a ton of clients. I don't need them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picturesque Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 Did they take your offer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotografz Posted June 22, 2005 Share Posted June 22, 2005 No matter what you did from the point that this client client came back at you for freebies, it was a lost cause. You won't get a single referral from them anyway. There is no easy way to handle it IMO. A simple, courteous no, and put the ball back into their court, (and hope it doesn't end up in real court). Or just send the stuff to them with a release attached to it concerning any further action on their part ... and move on all the wiser. Since you most likely won't get any more print orders from this client anyway, I would have just sent them the stuff and called it a day. If there isn't a specific document stating that specific shot would be taken and signed by you, they have little recourse for further action. Making any offer of further restitution is tantamount to admitting you were in the wrong, and if pursued further by them could conceivably be used against you. BTW, do you have liability insurance? Have you filed your company as a LLC? We carry a million dollars worth of liability insurance over and above our business insurance, and maintain our status as a LLC in Michigan. There are some awful people out there who will take advantage of anyone at anytime ... as you are learning with this incident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_h.1 Posted June 22, 2005 Share Posted June 22, 2005 "just send the stuff to them with a release attached to it concerning any further action on their part" If it is decided to send something in exchange for a release concerning further action on their part, sending it along with 'the stuff' is exactly the wrong thing to do. They should sign a release relinquishing all future claims in exchange for being sent the 'stuff' BEFORE anything is given to them. Its standard procedure and common sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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