Step-up from 645 to 67

[roberto_manderioli]

I own a Mamiya 645 Pro and shoot primarily landscape . I am seriuosly

considering stepping up to a Pentax 67 and wonder if the quality leap

is worth the money. Given the size I normally print (30x40 cm), will I

see a noticeable difference with the larger format?

I am making this consideration because the quality leap from 35 to

645 is good but not enough as I expected..

Thanks in advance

Roberto

[altaf]

go directly to large format do not stop :-)

 

Seriously just rent a lf outfit for a week, you wont be going back to mf for landscapes. There is a control there you will not find anywhere else, learn it, use it, and enjoy it.

[dick_deimel]

There is a difference between 645 and 6x7, but in small enlargements such as yiou are making it's not as great as the difference between 35mm and 6x7. If you ever go above 30x40 cm you will notice a decided difference in tonality and detail. The other gentleman was correct, though, about 4x5. Far better than any smaller format, and even if the quality were not, the controls would make LF worth while.

[lennart_estrvm]

In stead of going up to Pentax 67. I would recommend another alternative for you as a landscape photographer: Fuji GX 680 III.

This gives you the flexibility of using roll-film and the advantage of tilting and shifting like with a Large format camera.

[howard_slavitt1]

Why not a Horseman technical field camera? You can shoot 6 x7 or 6 x 9. It has all the movements of large format, but is smaller and lighter. Great quality lenses (again the same as large format). They're regularly sold on EBAY very inexpensively. The Fuji 680 is similar, but (a) much heavier because the FUJI is designed as a studio, not a field camera, and (b) you are locked into the Fuji lenses which are more expensive. Also, I like the choice of lenses (Schneider, Rodenstock, Nikon, Fuji) that you get with the Horseman.

[andreas_carl]

I can't imagine carrying the Fuji 680 into the field. If you want to go that route, better check out the Fuji 690 rangefinders. They are light weight, sharp and great for landscapes. In a 30x40 cm print you won't see much difference between what you get now and what you get from larger negatives. If you print 60x80 the difference becomes noticable. Are you printing yourself or have it done by a commercial lab? Perhaps that's the "weak link" in the chain.

[roberto_manderioli]

Andreas, I have my prints done at the commercial lab....

[dave_kemp]

Roberto, The ideal MF camera for you shooting landscapes would be the Mamiya 7 (6x7), but unfortunately it's big $$$. The Pentax 67 is probably the best dollar value in an interchangeable-lens MF camera, but its disadvantage is that it is very heavy (twice the weight of a Mamiya 7), and unless you're Arnold Schwarzenegger you will get very tired of lugging it around in the field. I agree with the previous post that you will find less difference between 645 and 6x7 than between 35 and 645. Given this fact, and the fact that you aren't looking for very large prints, maybe you ought to stick with what you've got (and save a lot of $$$) and concentrate on improved print quality by seeking out a really optimal color lab.

[roberto_manderioli]

Perhaps I should complete my original post saying that I'm in the process of either expanding the Mamiya 645 system or switching to another system. Since my goal is landscape, I wouldn't like to spend a lot of money in lenses and accessories in something that I already know might not be the best choice for landscape (the Mamiya).

Having said this I don't mean that I must absolutely sell the Mamiya and get the Pentax, but only that this might be the right moment to do it..

Thanks to all for the answers..

Roberto

[gene_crumpler6]

Roberto:

 

I second Dave's advice. A better lab might be the first move. I use 6x6(which is 6x4.5 in 8x10 or 16x20 prints) and 6x7 and only when you get to 16x20 or larger does any difference start to appear. I also do all of my B&W work, so I have (I hope) control of the film development and printing.

 

The step up will not be cheap, even with used euipment. A Fuji RF is not bad, but if you want interchangeable lenses you are looking at the p67 and with interchangeable backs you are limited to the RB/RZ or the Bronica, none of which are cheap.

[_____]

Hello Roberto

 

First, ask yourself what your favourite focal length for landcapes is. If it is the 35mm equivalent of 28mm or 39mm, and you mean to use it to shoot predominantly landscapes I can't think of a better camera for you than the FUJI 690 III GSW (65mm F5.6) or the GW (90mm F3.5). I am a new convert to this camera because the results I have seen are startlingly good. Its rangefinder design also means that its optics are optimal without compromise to accomodate an SLR mirror. 6X9 cm is a real leg up on the 6X7cm. The FUJI 69 is affordable. I feel that the more rectangular format of the 69 works in the favour of horizontal landscapes. (My sentiments are the same with respect to the 5"X7" compared to 4"X5"). Rent it and see.

 

Since you're in Italy you may also wish to try the Silvestri T30 with movements. It takes 69 in its standard configuration and accomodates 612 backs, even 4"X5" (but with no movements). It costs about as much a FUJI 690 but then you'll have to fork out money for the large-format lens which the Silvestri employs. WWW.silvestricameras.com. Good luck and tell us what you decide.

[watson___]

Hi Roberto..

 

A 645 negative enlarged to 11x14" should be quite excellent. You may need to adjust the combination of film, setup technique, and processing to achieve that excellence. Of course the 6x7 negative will look much better at 16x20" enlargements, but the gap using good technique at 11x14 is not so visible.

 

Can you describe whether it is sharpness, colour, saturation, grain, etc that is disappointing. Has the camera been checked for alignment? Can you also describe your lighting, film choice, lenses, aperture, tripod, tripod head, shutter release cable, and accessories etc and we may be able to help tune your technique.

 

Most of my landscape shooting is with a Pentax 645 and some of it is with a 6x12 back on a Toyo 4x5 A2. I plan to move to a Fuji 690 for a bigger negative than the Pentax and much easier handling than the Toyo.

 

Best regards..

[roberto_manderioli]

Watson,

thanks for your replay and thanks also to everyone who's sending me advices and helpful messages.

It isn't that 645 landscape is disappointing, but there are several consideration that made me wonder about a 67 change.

 

First, I wanted to expand my 645 system. I'm still using the waist-level finder which I really don't feel comfortable with and I wanted also to get a wide angle lens since I only have the standard 80mm. So I started wondering if it would be the right moment of making one more effort and changing the whole system now that it is still limited, and go for a more landscape oriented camera (although I understand rangefinders are perhaps the best choice, I still would like a SLR design)

 

Second, about the quality. I have made tests and although 645 has clearly shown its superiority against 35mm, I frankly expected to see some more gap.

When I bought the 645 I wanted to sell my 35mm gear and use only MF. Then I realized that they are two different worlds and that I had to stick with both of them if I wanted to cover all my photographic needs.

So now I find that the weight, loss of movement, lack of automatism, expensiveness are maybe not counter balanced by the results of 645 ...I say maybe as the issue could be my technique and the lab processing.

However , that is why I wanted to go to 67, in order to have two systems more specialyzed in their own sector, and with a bigger quality gap.

 

Do you think I should rather put the money in an enlarger with a good lens?

 

Thanks and regards, Roberto

[tim_brown]

Roberto sez: "Do you think I should rather put the money in an enlarger with a good lens?"

 

Doing your own processing, especially B&W, will open a whole new world of controll, regardless of format.

[gene_crumpler6]

Roberto;

 

You've now introduced a new variable, your desire to(appparently)do your own darkroom work. If you are wanting to make that move, them I think you definitely should do that first, before changing MF systems. Get a decent used 4x5 enlarger with a diffustion head if possible as that will give you the most future flexibility. Invest in a good lens, I have the latest 80mm el-nikkor, which is excellent and will cover 35, 6x4.5, 6x6 and 6x7.

 

See what you can squeeze out of your 6x4.5 by developing your darkroom skills. Once you learn basic darkroom skills and can turn out a quality print, the decision (yes or no) to move to 6x7 may become self-evident. You will have taken control of all parts of the process from selecting films and developers, to deciding on creative printing techniques to enhance you final prints.

[roberto_manderioli]

Gene, I maybe forgot to point out that I make color prints from transaprencies (cibachrome paper) and since I use to make them on my own in the darkroom, I know that there is very little control over it. Furthermore, finding the right filtering for each pack of paper is a pain and the paper and chemicals are also very expensive. I find much more comfortable and cheap looking for a good lab. Frankly, seen the kind of work I do (print from transparencies) I doubt that a darkroom might improve the quality of my prints..perhaps color negatives can yield a bigger margin of improvement ...

[gene_crumpler6]

Well, It seems that the thing to do is to rent or borrow a 6x7, shoot a few rolls side by side with your 645, run them through your current lab and see, if in your own mind, the difference in print quality justifies the expenditure.

[edward_kimball]

Roberto,

 

I would definitely upgrade the 645 outfit that you are currently using.

 

For 11X14 prints the Mamiya 645 is more than adequate. The best 11X14 that I have produced was with a borrowed M645 and the 80mm lens. I think that a prism finder (possibly metered) would be a good investment for you. Personally, I have some difficulty composing an image in a waist level finder (Yashica Mat). I have also used the 55mm and 150mm lenses and those perspectives might be pleasing to you.

 

I went to your website (nice site) and I think that using a wider lens and getting closer might be good as well.

 

What films do you use? Are you using the format to its full potential?

 

Edward Kimball