M4-2 or M4-P

[steve_levine]

A local dealer here has both of these for sale. He is selling both

for what seems a very low price ($1500 for the pair).

 

I've read that the M4-2's were "Canadian made out of poor quality,

inferior materials", to quote one website.

 

 

How about the M4-P's? Are these decent shooters?

 

 

He will allow a return if they don't function properly, and I can

test shoot a roll prior to buying.

[victorm.]

You're opening a can of unfriendly worms. Look here: http://www.imx.nl/photosite/leica/mseries/choosem.html ALSO http://nemeng.com/leica/#032b.

[eliot_rosen1]

The M4-2 is not a bad camera, but the M4-P is a better one. BTW, the M4-P cameras were virtually all made in Canada also. Except for a small batch during the last year, none of the M4-Ps were made in Germany.

[wai_leong_lee]

For $750 you can buy an M4 or M3 here. Just be a bit patient.

[wai_leong_lee]

An M3 just sold for $615 here last week. Be patient.

 

Since CLA costs the same for both M3/M4 and M4-2/M4-P, you're not losing out by waiting for an M4/M3.

[harvey_edelstein1]

I think M4-P was the first M with all the present frame lines in VF.

[billsr]

I recall a post by the owner of an M4-P a few years ago who reported that a Leica repair person very well known to us forum members told him that if he kept the camera they were going to become very good friends!

[torben_daltoft]

http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00FvPg

[graham_line]

Given that either of these is at least 20 years old, how they have been treated and how they look and function now is probably more important than how they were assembled originally. Prices of these seem to be a little 'soft' lately, so it would help to do a little comparison shopping. Instead of 'very low,' I'd say he's pretty much in line with the market.

 

Is he selling them as a set? If you can shoot test slides and he'll accept returns, there doesn't seem to be much risk to you.

[feli]

Forget about the M4-2. I have one and it's only been trouble, even after a full CLA. Every

person I know who had one, encoutered problem. Talk to any of the respected repair

shops and you'll hear the same.

 

The M4-P is a good camera. Think of it as a M6 without the meter.

 

http://www.lhsa.org/repair.html

 

feli

[ian_everhov]

Well, maybe i'm living my life with my head in the clouds, but i've used a M4-2 for a long time now. It's serving as my main camera nowdays, it's been banged around in the arctics during my latest "arctic survival course" with the army. It has seen some very heavy tropical showers in Malaysia, even a bit of desert in egypt. Besides surviving my everyday grind with work, a wild 3yr old son and the occasional weekend war with the army reserves. My M6 on the other hand needed a lot of service given the same treatment, hence the M4-2s upgrade to everyday banger. Though i've heard some reports you should get one with snr above 15xxxxx.

I don't think the difference quality-wise is all that big of an issue between the electronics free leicas. Mind you the M4-P is a great camera too, but don't rule out the M4-2, personally i prefer the 35-50-90 uncluttered finder of the M4 and M4-2.

Bottom line is you can't go wrong with either, good luck and happy shooting!

[mike-images]

I have a M4-2 made in late 1979 towards the end of the run. I've had it over 6 years and it's never missed a beat - great camera - and I don't baby it. My son has a very good condition M4-P made a year later also a very smooth camera. Either or both. IMHO the negative mythology around the M4-2 is just that - mythology.

 

Best wishes

 

Mike

[andyaitken]

There are a few small but significant advantages to the M4-2 over the M4-P eg. more accurate framelines (esp 35mm and 50mm), better viewfinder (condenser lens removed in M4-P), brass top plate. The M4-P has framelines for 75mm and 28mm but they are all undersized to squeeze in the 28mm frame. To me the more accurate framelines are an issue but then I don't have a 75mm and prefer an external finder for 28mm. I doubt there are any differences in reliability as long as you avoid a 14xxxxxx serial number. 1 caveat - don't put any kind of winder on an M4-2.

 

The price is only reasonable unless they are really mint.

[kevin m.]

Another vote for the M4-2. Uncluttered finder and more accurate framelines than the M4-P,

plus vulcanite instead of vinyl.

[kbg32]

I have had my M4-2 for over 26 years. It's been a faithfull companion all over the world. I

would highly recommend it.

[skip_williams]

Lots of opinions, huh? If you can't tell, this is a big source of controversy. Early M4-2's, after the factory just moved to Midland, are notoriously uneven in quality; some are great, some give unending problems to their owners. The later, 6-frameline M4-P is much closer to a meterless M6 than the earlier cameras.

 

All things being equal, and given a choice, I'd buy an M4 before either of the Canadian cameras and the M4-P over the M4-2. I doubt whether anyone else would dispute that opinion. The only downside of that decision is that you don't get the extra framelines (28/75) and there's no winder capability; but most would trade those "features" for increased quality of an M4.

 

Skip

[x-ray]

I've used all of the RF models up to the M7 with the exception of the M5. I've been a professional using Leicas heavily for over thirty eight years now and have used both the M42 and M4P extensively. I would venture to guess I've run well into the tens of thousands of rolls over that time. The only issues I've had with any of my Leicas has been two RF alignments, one on my early M3 and on the M4P and one self timer spring on a very early M3. I had a CL for a couple of years and used it as a carry camera but had extensive meter problems with it. The CL is not typical of Leica construction. With all of the use that I've given my M's I can honestly say that it really makes no difference which model you pick unless you plan to run a hundred thopusand or more rolls through it in the next few years. It's total rubish that one is better than the other. Buy the one you can buy the cheapest and invest in another lens or some film and then take pictures.

 

I currently use an M2, M3, M6 and 2 MP's.

 

http://www.photo.net/photos/X-Ray

[terence_mahoney1]

Wait until after the M Digital is available. The prices of all but rare or mint collectors' models will collapse like a tower of toothpicks in a stiff wind.

[al_kaplan1]

That'll be great. Then the Terry types will start trolling other forums.

[35mmdelux]

Hi Steve,

 

The M4-P is a great shooter. I've owned several and have one on fleecebay right now. It was the first to add the 28mm framelines, as such no external VF is needed. It was also the last fully mechanical Leica. Subsequent models have meters.

 

If you shoot alot, the external VF is annoying as it is slow. Pass on the M4-2 unless you're a collector or devotee assuming they're in equal cond.

[dan flanders]

"Early M4-2's, after the factory just moved to Midland, are notoriously uneven in quality; some are great, some give unending problems to their owners."<p> The Midland factory was established many years before the onset of the M4/2!. It was in fact a little "Wetzlar", staffed with scientists, technicians and others who immigrated from Germany and was the first Leitz facility to employ computer technology in the design of lenses. It is my understanding that the M4/2 was conceived after the Wetzlar honchos had decided to discontinue the M line and concentrate strictly on the R Series. The public outcry convinced them to reinstate the M series after much of the tooling had been converted to other ends. Remember that most of the successful M2's had been the products of Midland, and the Mandler lenses were the top of Leitz's designs. Retooling for continued M4 production required adjustments and compromises that resulted in the reputation of the early M4/2's. The latter ones were probably as reliable as the M4/P's. I have an early M4/2 which is still going strong and has never been in for a CLA or any other adjustment. They were NOT made from inferior materials and were NOT indiferently assembled! Let's put an end to these urban myths.

[jati_lindsay]

M4-P all day. i love mine. bought a beat up one 3 years ago and havent had any real problems with it. ive had less problems with it than my M6.....

[christopher_a._junker1]

If the two are in similar condition(try for test rolls) give some thought on what lenses you will be using. I've used a very reliable M4-2 for years with 35/50/90 lenses. If you are planning to use shorter or longer focal lengths or using focal lengths other than the M4-2 frame lines, a choice other than the M4-2 is indicated. If all you ever plan to use is a 50, I'd be looking for a good M3. If you are a lefty, a baseplate winder like the Rapidwinder or Leicavit is handy on the M4-2. I wouldn't bother with a motor winder.

[mario_mazariegos]

Have an M4-2 for some time now, its a stablemate to my M6ttl and I love it! I like the plain uncluttered finders in it, have had no problems with it, so if you go for a serial with 15 and subsequent, you should be all right, Happy shooing!