Which M4 is ...

[pico_digoliardi]

I stopped paying attention to 35mm hardware shortly after the M4 was

introduced. At that time I had been using an M2 since about 1965,

and continued to use the M4 until about 1978 when I retired.

 

I am stupid about later model M types. I'd like to get one good M4

that frames like my M2, and is as reliable. It will be used with the

first version 35mm F1.4 Summilux.

 

But there are apparently so many variations. Some made in Canada,

some reputed to be lower quality than the original M2, and soforth.

 

Which M4 is closest to the M2 in terms of robust build, and the same

kind of finder?

[nick_evans1]

Hi

 

Try this link

 

http://www.cameraquest.com/classics.htm

 

It has some vey interesting articles on Leica M series as well as other classic cameras.

 

HTH

 

Nick

[john_r._fulton_jr.]

Pico--if I understand your question you just want a plain M4. It will be very similar to your

M2 except for the rewind (crank), advance lever (different), and auto counter. The film

loading's differeent too, but the viewfinder, as far as I know, is identical to your M2. You do

not want an M4-2 or an M4-P, altho the original M4-2's had the old viewfinder.

[kbg32]

I know a lot of people dislike the M4-2, but I think you should consider it if one comes your

way at a good price. I have had mine for over 26 years and it has always functioned

flawlessly.

[tim_franklin]

"the viewfinder, as far as I know, is identical to your M2."

 

Apart from having the 135mm frame lines, which come up together with the 35mm frame.

 

If, by the same viewfinder, you mean one-frame-at-a-time, then its the M2 I think Pico.

Unless you'd be willing to send another body to a service agent to have the unwanted

frames removed..

[frederick_muller]

You should get yourself a chrome M4, and ensure the shutter is in good condition. Black paint M4's cost an arm and a leg, and black chrome ones, however nice, aren't likely to wear as well as users as chrome ones. In general, I think Chrome M4's are a lot like Chrome M2's except for the rewind crank, the 135mm frame, and the frame counter. I don't think it matters one bit whether it was made in Canada or Wetzlar, though collectors play games like that. It sounds to me like you are a shooter, so it shouldn't matter if this is a Midland or a Wetzlar piece.

 

I really like M4's and M2's. The M2 is so tough ... I'm sure the M4 is too, but I have a beater M2 and I baby my M4's too much. Last week I stood up and stretched after a shoot with my M2 in my right hand. I cracked the M2 against a solid iron light fixture with a CLANG that would have woken up the neightborhood. The baseplate had carved a notch in the heavy chandelier-like fixture, and there was just one more little nick at the edge of the baseplate. The alignment was fine and the M2 is as solid as ever.

 

There is a lot about the M2 that just screams that it's a "shooter". Don't ask me what it is. It just has some kind of indescribable, intangible, "stuff" ...

[john_graham3]

<i> until about 1978 when I retired.</i></p> Unless you retired young that'd make you somewhere between 90 and 93...if you're still out shooting, bless your peapickin heart as ol' Ernie used to say.

[john_r._fulton_jr.]

I'd forgotten the M4 had the 135mm finder. I had my black chrome M4 "upgraded" to the

M4-P viewfinder (so I could have the 28mm finder) so I had no memory of the 135mm.

[feli]

You want a regular M4. In addition to the features of the M2 you also get 135mm

framelines, faster loading and the slanted rewind knob. Many people claim the M4 is the

best non-metered body Leica ever made.

 

The M4-2 has the same framelines as the M4, but has a spotty reliability record. Some

have worked flawlessly for decades, while others failed. Mine had a full rebuild, but died

within a few months.

 

The M4-P is a very good camera, but has the cluttered M6 framelines.

 

The whole Canada vs Germany debate is a non-issue. The M4-2 was made in Canada, but

the problems stemmed from Leica having to restart the traditional M camera production

line from scratch after the M5 sales fiasco, not because the Canadians can't assemble

cameras.

 

Feli

[ronald_moravec1]

M4 2`s were Leica`s first attempt at making parts to exact fit so little or no adjustment in assembly could be made and in theory not required. After the first batch or two, it started to work and the practice is still followed today with Leica and all first class manufacturers.

 

Assembly labor was cut substantially. It had nothing to do with moving to Canada or less skilled workers there.

 

If you are old school, just get a M2 or M4 and have it completely redone with new curtains and a clean and it will run a very long time.

You would not be disappointed in a new MP either which is in my opinion the best one ever made. You will have a meter, stronger steel gears, better shutter, Rf optics not done with Canadian balsam which are starting to deteriorate, same smooth operation as the first M`s, and a warantee. Depending on how much you pay for an M4, the cost may not be that much higher.

[pico_digoliardi]

KEITH: I am happy to hear your M4 has been good for 28 years. The M2 (actually two of them)and M4 I had required shutter tune-ups every year, but they were beat about an awfull lot.

 

FREDERICK and many others: Thanks for the information regarding the finder frames. Now I am having second thoughts on the M4. Perhaps I should just get another M2, pray that it is in fair shape and be prepared for an overhaul as Ronald suggested.

 

JOHN G: :) Not old. Just sixty. I retired from pro photography for school, and later to do a family thing.

 

Thanks very much to all. The M2 is looking better. Dunno what got me into the M4 idea.

 

In the spirit of the 'net, in return is a nifty feature of the M2 - a DOF preview. (After you use it a lot, you don't really need it.)

 

See: http://www.digoliardi.net/Leica_M2_DOF.gif

[frederick_muller]

" Perhaps I should just get another M2, pray that it is in fair shape and be prepared for an overhaul as Ronald suggested."

 

Pico, I will hazard a guess that you might have fewer problems with an M2 in Exc++ condition than with an M4 in Mint-minus condition. Why? The M2 has probably been used for what it was intended for, had its shutter duly exercised and its finder adjusted by someone who cared about what he shot. The M4 is probably clean because it sat in someone's desk drawer for fifty years while the grease in its works congealed into a deep sucky glob of goo. (Which isn't to say a CLA wouldn't put things right, but you get the picture).

[pico_digoliardi]

<B>Frederick</b><i> Pico, I will hazard a guess that you might have fewer problems with an M2 in Exc++ condition than with an M4 in Mint-minus condition. </i><p>

 

That pushed me over the edge, thank you, Frederick. I have bookmarked four M2s on that auction site. It has been a long time, so I need to get a sense of the market, a reality check. All my 'for money' (I don't like to use the word Pro) work is MF and LF, so this is a personal purchase and it really stings to pay what Leicas are really worth. :)

[feli]

Guys, any camera that is 40 years old should have a CLA, regardless of how much use it

has had. Leica didn't switch to synthetic lubricants until late in the game. Natural

lubricants are a lot more prone to fail with age.

 

Look here for a shop:

 

http://www.lhsa.org/repair.html

 

Popular choices are DAG, Golden Touch, Leica, Kinderman and Focal Point.

 

 

Also there is not difference in build quality between the M2 and M4. They are equal.

It wasn't until the arrival of the M4-2 that things changed and it is the only problematic M

camera Leica made. All other models are extremely reliable.

 

If you really want to get technical about predicting long term reliability consider this.

 

The prism in the M3/ M2 finder is cemented with Canadian Balsam. With time it

crystalizes and can fail due to impact or vibration.

 

The prism blocks in all M cameras from the M4 on were cemented with a synthetic UV

cured glue that does not deteriorate with age.

 

 

Feli