How do I overcome the high noon sun?

[robbie_caswell]

I have a wedding in two weeks. Though it could get cramped with even their

small wedding party, I'm resigned to using fill flash in close and that is not

a problem.

 

Location: Dream location at the end of a dock (5ft X 60 Ft with a larger

portion at the end) overlooking the Intercoastal Waterway.

 

Time: High noon! My visit revealed bright sun reflecting off the water making

matters even worse.

 

Equipment: D200/D70, primes, 17-55 zoom, and a pair of SB800. Leicas (M3, M3,

M6, 35Lux, 50Lux, 90 Cron) with a fridge full of PanF50, Fuji 160.

 

Typically it would be easy to shoot. Neighboring docks providing scenic shots

from both directions of B+G. Large multi story house adjoinng dock that I

could shoot down and away on them. I want is to include as much of the

surroundings as possible.

 

So from a telephoto distance (20 feet +) how do I beat the sun and the raccon

eyes? Went the at 11:15 and there were still some shadows, and I was thinking

that I could just use the neighboring houses and water by shooting down upon

them to hide the burnt out sky.

 

Any solutions? Already shopping for a Quantum for my flashes, so money is

somewhat kimited, and this is practically a freebie.

 

1.) Neutral density filters?

 

2) Pocket wizards triggering an SB800?

 

3) Over expose and burn out the background.

 

4) Put on maccasins and do a rain dance?

[robbie_caswell]

Full Sun registered at

 

ISO 50 + F11 @ 160

 

ISO 160 + F11 @ 500

[liang_kong_rui]

portable strobes! try alien bees, the best bang for the buck

[bdp]

Be aware of your max sync rate, most likely you're going to have to run a high Aperture to get your shutter speed low enough (assuming a very bright day) to sync with your flashes.

[picturesque]

Not much you can do to overcome high noon sun except out power it, which is impractical at a wedding (high power flash units). ND filters don't do anything to help in this regard except allow you to use wider apertures. Polarizers cut reflections which may or may not help with glare off the water and would be a pain to use when shooting fast action. Off camera flashes would also be impractical at a wedding unless you have assistants and/or the space (questionable on a dock). Don't understand why overexposing and burning out the background would be a solution except for maybe a few where the main thing is proper exposure on faces and fill flash couldn't accomplish it.

 

I would expose for the light, which is full sun, which is a pretty consistent exposure value. If shooting digital, probably some of the glinting sunlight on the water will blow, but I would let it blow. I would use fill flash. If you have 20+ feet distances, figure out if your flash can cut it. If it can't and you have to shoot that far away, get a flash that will or go closer. Actually if you are looking to a Quantum to do that, I have to say that the parabolic reflectors don't zoom to telephoto, so it may or may not make sense to use your regular zooming shoemount flash. Me, I'd use my on camera flash as fill and expose for the sunlight, and not shoot so far away that my flash couldn't give me a one stop fill.

[robbie_caswell]

I was shopping for a Quantum battery cause I had some recycling issues last weekend doing some outdoor formals last weekend.

 

Guess the D70 with its flash sync of 1/500 would be a better choice than my D200?

[bill_b2]

For the sky, try automatic exposure bracketing(-1.0, -2.0, or whatever works in tests), pop, pop, pop, then use HDR merge in PS CS2. Don't worry about the flash recycling quickly enough on the second and third shots, they are just for a good exposure of the sky. Choose the better one. You can test this ahead of time to find the right exposure compensation(NOT flash exposure compensation), assuming the same lighting.

 

See if the Quantum has a telephoto reflector available. If not, see if a Better Beamer can be fitted to it.

[fotografz]

Robbie is NOT using a Quantum flash, he's getting a Quantum battery for his current flash.

 

If he DID have the Quantum flash, there is a Telephoto reflector that concentrates the light

in a narrower beam ... it's a larger circumference, shallow reflector I've used when

shooting with a CF180/4 or when the distance is further while shooting with a normal

focal length.

 

I think Robbie was referring to the use of the Leica when mentioning ND filters because

the sync speed on an M is only 1/50th.

 

Robbie, in the circumstances you mentioned I'd opt for using the low contrast Fuji film. If

you use the Leicas and 90 Cron, get a Heliopan 8X ND to cut the light, and use fill. Do you

have a flash you've used for the M3s? If not, does the Nikon SB800 have a Sync port you

can connect to the M3s? Just manually set the SB to it's maximum telephoto reflector.

 

In lieu of that, just rent or borrow a Nikon film body. Film just has more latitude than

digital in really contrasty conditions, especially toward the overexposure side which helps

with shadow detail.

 

If you shoot digital for God's sake shoot RAW and really keep your eye on the histogram. I

situations like you mentioned (ones I faced yesterday by the way) I shoot the lowest ISO

the conditions will allow and slightly underexpose to hold the whites. This is counter to

most conventional advice, but at really low ISOs noise in the shadows is all but eliminated

even when lift the shadows in RAW processing. If you're consistant, you should be able to

batch process all the outdoor shots.

[steve_levine]

"""How do I overcome the high noon sun?"""

 

 

Shoot in the shade.

[robbie_caswell]

I think I'm over analyzing things. Just need to keep it simple. I'll let my wife bomb away with the telephoto and I'll concentrate on the job at hand.

 

With the D70 and 1/500 sync and 200 minimum on the ISO... I'm not gaining anything vs the D200 low ISO of 100 and 1/250 sync... correct?

 

Last weeks wedding and this one coming up has rekindled my Medium format interest. Knew I would regret selling my Bronica. I'm almost tempted to hunt down one on Ebay.

 

I have about $1000 I can put towards something and I think that something should be the battery pack. Possibly could borrow an F5 and/or F100.

[ned1]

Do you have an assistant? Maybe a scrim + polarizer.

[bruce_rubenstein___nyc]

The sun reflecting off the water may actually help you by kicking some light back up into faces. With a clear sky, you shouldn't have a problem with it burning out. It's more likely to happen with a cloudy/hazy day. Anyway, you don't need a whole lot of light from the flash to add a bit of fill, and shouldn't have much trouble so long as you don't put any diffuser over the flash. Just point it straight ahead.

 

For film I would bring some Reala 100. That film will hold the dynamic range, but you may have problems getting it printed with the full range.

[robbie_caswell]

I'm a slave to the histogram and highlight function, so how about using the fill flash with the D200 as a polaroid and back it up with Fuji 160 film?

[__rob]

Since you have access to the location, the best thing to do would be to go there with

someone to stand in for you and shoot a whole lot of tests. Try different combinations of

fill flash and ambient exposure using manual settings. Benefit of digital.

<p>

A circular polarizer might help with cutting specular highlights off the water, but you have

to worry about turning it to the right angle/rotation on your lens.<p>

If you're shooting negative film with your Leicas, you can pull process to reduce the harsh

contrast. Maybe something like FP4 rated at about 80 and pulled a stop. Expose for the

shadows in that case. I've avoided shooting both film and digital at the same time because

it's too much of a context switch for me to think about during something like a wedding.

[al_kaplan1]

Another possibility is an "amateur" film like Kodacolor Gold 100 if you can find it, or 200 which is available everyplace. It does have "punchy" colors but has a lot of exposure latitude in both directions. Shoot a test roll and favor the shadows, but it's amazing how much detail it will still hold in the brightly lit areas.

[maroark]

The D-70 will sync at any shutter speed so long as the camera can't talk to the flash (and override your shutter speeds). A vivitar 285 zoomed out and set to manual might be an idea for high speed flash sync. Also you could just put a non dedicated hot-shoe between the SB-800 and the D-70. It seems like a step backwards doesn't it?

 

I was just looking at some galleries where there seemed to be alot of burnt out backgrounds but the images were still strong. I kept asking myself, "when is it ok to let the highlights go and when is it not ok?". Obviously it's not ok when the highlights are part of your subject but I think as long as the background is consistently overexposed it works. I don't think it would work if the water and some of the buildings had detail but the sky was blown out.

[uk]

Robbie,

 

I'm with Steve on this. Work the shade as best you can because it will help you stay in

control. In the open sun I would make too many errors and take too many chances with

hair highlights, deep shadows under hats, sunglasses etc.

 

Pose the subjects on the edge of shade, use the bright foreground for bounce-back and

longer lenses if necessary for better backgrounds. Bracket backgrounds for post

processing in the event you become desparate after the event.

 

Using the Leica M with a Heliopan is a good idea. I've followed Marc's advice on that, but

try to standardise on films and iso' to avoid errors. I've made the mistake of changing

incident light meter iso to accomodate ND's and not changed it back again after removing

it. I've changed from 400 to 160 and not changed the TTL meter setting, so standardising

is a prime rule for me in a film based multi-camera set-up.

 

Which particular rain dance were you thinking of ?

[fotografz]

"Dream location at the end of a dock (5ft X 60 Ft with a larger portion at the end)"

 

Hmmm, I wonder how many big shade trees are there?

[robbie_caswell]

It looks more like a fishing village. Large expanse of marsh land, water, beach homes, docks, etccc... absolutly no shade. Though I think they will have a tent for the reception at a neighboring lot.

 

 

Would look fab around 7PM with an orange sky...

 

Picked up a Bronnie SQ and will test it this weekend to re-aquaint myself with the system. Flash syncs to 1/500.

[dave_yuhas]

Nadine Ohara - ND filters don't do anything to help in this regard except allow you to use wider apertures.

 

ND filters _might_ allow you to use a shutter speed that is compatible with your flash, assuming a focal plane shutter.

[aaron l]

If you can get an assistant, have them hold a diffusion scrim/screen to block out the sun off your subjects and get free diffuse light. That's what swimsuit shooters do at mid-day at the beach, they create a light tent.

 

If that's not an option, go for the fill in and try lowering your remote flash to eye level if not a tiny bit lower and power it down to -1 or thereabouts. Give it a try. If you can put a LSII on it to make the flash bigger, that would work even better.

 

Do a high, thin cirrus clouds dance.

[picturesque]

Dave--isn't that using wider apertures? And the use of wider apertures doesn't help you overcome the sun.

 

I realize I assumed Robbie was getting a Quantum flash when he is really talking about a battery pack, but I would point out that changing a reflector multiple times during a wedding ceremony (where you need to shoot near and far) is somewhat awkward and slower than even manually changing the zoom on a shoemount flash. Maybe if one camera/flash were dedicated to the far shots.

 

As for racoon eyes, you can't eliminate the pattern on faces without grossly changing the way the image looks (subject lit by mostly flash and severe underexposure of the ambient to the point of looking like night). Even if you fill strongly, the pattern still remains. If forced to deal with this, you just fill so that the eyes can be seen and balance with the ambient exposure. This is true with film or digital.

[anner]

I would prefer a low contrast film in this situation. A polarizer will help keep your sky from

blowing out. Definitely shoot RAW at the lowest ISO possible for the most post-processing

control over the shadows, or if you shoot JPG.. make sure your contrast is turned all the way

down. It never hurts to do a little rain dance. ;-)

[garethspics]

Get a big reflector and a spare pair of hands.

[ishmail_mehmet]

I would over compensate for the flash, dial on the left of the 7D. Giving you a correct exposure for the backgroubd and the right exposure for the couple. You will obviously have to do some test shots to see how many flash compensation stops you'll need to get a good balance. These settings would mainly be for if the sun is at eye level and directly going into the lens. I did have an experience like this but it was at the end of the day where the sun was going down and right behind the bride and groom. Hope ive helped in some way.