alan_miller10 Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Right, I've been lurking a little while and eventually have bought an M6ttl with 50mm 'cron. Both second hand. The body through fleabay and the lens through ffordes. I've put about 4 films through and taken shots on the way back from work to get used to it having come from a nikon f3. So far i really like the camera and the results, 50mm being bascially all i used on the F3. Now, for the problems. I loaded it with fuji 160s which i've used for ages... havign practiced on quite a few cruddy free films to get used to the loading method i thought i had it pretty much sussed. Took it to a wedding preloaded. Finished a roll and tried to load another. Used the same method - half dropped the film in, pulled it across and into the tulip. shut the back and fired off a blanking shot. tried to wind on - nothing... lever *would not* move. Opened it up and noticed the film seemed to be in a bit of a state on the rails behind the shutter. pulled it out and reloaded... same thing happened... this happened 3 times and then i changed film roll... happened once and then went on. finished shooting the film today when at about 36 i felt the tension just "go" and the spool/rewind crank weren't turning... tried to rewind it and it's just jammed... now i assume here it may be a rail thing again and have phoned up a local processing house (metro colour lab in birmingham)who hoepfully may be able to get it off in a dark box/ room today. question i have is, logically i can see 3 reasons why this may have happened... a] newb mistake in loading film, if anything sounds wrong - what is it please? b] it was a hot, sunny day. Is it possible that the rails have heated and expanded inside, causing problems, if so is there anyway to get round this or is it a case of TADTS... c] is my camera stuffed? looking at the leica FAQ page i noticed that malcolm taylor isn't a million miles away from me. Does anyone know if he might be able to shed any light on this? failing that - any places to recommend to have a look at it? i am currently extrememly poor and need *a* camera for another wedding in two weeks so need it sharpish. please help... pretty please.. n.b. everything sounds pretty smooth with no harshness or graunching but i have no experience of leicas so this may mean nothing. only query point i did have is the cron seems to have a slight sticking point about half way round on the focus ring. don;t know if it's common but it doesn't really bother me enough to look around again. except for a faster 50 maybe... ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anhtu Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Hi Alan, I'm trying to picture in my head your loading technique - First the spool of film has to be all the way in and you need to make sure the film sprockets line up with the film transport gears before you close the back. The leader has to go into the tulip slot and out a bit (5mm at least to make sure it catches). Also before you close the bottom plate - maybe trip the shutter and give it a quick wind and inspect to see if the leader has wrap itself around the tulip/takeup spool. It is important that you wind quickly so that the film does not drag too much against the rails. When I first had the M6TTL, this was what I did - wasted one frame but made sure the film wound on properly. As you get more used to it - you can forget the trip shutter inspection step. Given that there "might" be bits of flim clippings in the rail/gear transport - this might affect the film loading. Do a visual inspection under strong lights to verify it is film bits free. Hope you work it out soon. cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan_miller10 Posted June 19, 2006 Author Share Posted June 19, 2006 hmmm.. i can't remember if i wound on quickly or not... following some earlier stuff i'd read there seem to be two different camps... some say, don't wind on - others do - prior to shutting the back up. i don;t think i pulled the leader past teh tulip, think i let it suit inside, maybe this was the error. I'll experiment a bit. If there are bits of film in it, whats the best way to clean it? puffer bulb thing? a good shake upside down? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anhtu Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Hi Alan, Alan - Leave the film aside - just fire the shutter and visual inpect the gears with the naked eye under strong lights to see if tiny bits of film are caught in the gears - unlike but not impossible. You can feel if the gears move smoothly or not. As to initially winding quickly or not - you have less chance of slippage (of the film leader) as the tulip bulb has more torque to grab the film. By quick I mean reasonable - not blindly fast. :-) The danger is that if the gears are not catching properly - a quick strong wind can cut the film into small bits. And about making sure the leader enters and go out of two sockets - it just gives the spool more film surface area to grip. Once you get the hang of this (about 10 rools) it will be quick and painless. :-) good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan_miller10 Posted June 19, 2006 Author Share Posted June 19, 2006 many thanks. It's just a bti infuriating, i'd practised quite a bit with some out of date film to get the hang of it without any problems... ah well, nothing like doing it out when you need it i guess, but practise makes perfect. Thanks for the answer and fingers crossed the roll stuck in there comes out at all and then ok if it does come out... luckily i had a friends d50 with me as backup but as soon as i pick it up my brain goes into autopilot and i treat it like a big P&S for some reason... just can't get my head round not having a focus and aperture ring... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anhtu Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Once you get the hang of it Alan - you wont need to thread the leader through two holes - just one will do as long as the leader is long enough to touch the opposite side of the tulip spool. I learned the hard way (2 lost rolls at the start). :-) I'll try to track down a scan manual for you. cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charley_ Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 http://www.nemeng.com/leica/000b.shtml I Had trouble similar to yours in when I first got my M6 ..... I just did not trust how easy it is to load the film .. I went back and read the manual that came with my camera ; ) and never had trouble again .... any way good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terry_rory Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 "there seem to be two different camps... some say, don't wind on - others do - prior to shutting the back up" There is only one 'camp' to my mind and that is the one that loads the film exactly as the diagram shows then puts the baseplate on BEFORE winding onto the first frame. This is exactly how my M6 TTL instructions describe the process and how I have done it from day one without any failure (yet). See online M6 manual and refer to page 8 and page 9.... http://www.forloren.dk/lbf/leicaM6w.pdf where it says... "Only after replacing the baseplate, test for correct loading by gently tensing the rewind crank, and slowly stroking the advance lever. Backward turning of the rewind is proof of proper film transport. Wind on, and fire twice to bring the frame counter to number 1." It also goes on to say that the inner wheel on the baseplate will align the film leader for you (another indication the baseplate should be atteched before winding on). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anhtu Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Alan, When I first asked around about loading - there was two camps about winding (slow/quick), I found out more me - a firm quick wind takes up the leader much better. The purpose of the tulip spool is to bend the leader and pull the film - so a slow wind has a chance of slippage of the leader. Once you get the hang of it - it will be dead easy. BTW: check your mail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan_miller10 Posted June 19, 2006 Author Share Posted June 19, 2006 many thanks for the responses. Just to clarify my exact procedure thus far. remove baseplate. hold or drop in suit pocket. put film canister in about half way down. pull leader across as per diagram in camera. pull leader into tulip so that the leader touches the far tulip "leaf" fold up back put base back on. tbh, i seem to forget to tension the film sometimes but i wind on and fire two shots, camera set to 1/1000 shutter speed, lens cap on. check rewind crank is rotating with film advance lever movement. however, on this occasion it fired once and then the advance lever jammed. upon taking the base off, assuming a misload the film over the rails was exhibiting slight dents or crinkles almost coming off the rail on the edge closest to the to top. i'll have a look and see if there are any film bits in the gears from my first misload but aside from that i'll go back and have another look at the manual :-) and practise away.. thanks again for you help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terry_rory Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Get some more old cruddy 'practice' film (a different one to the problem film) and try it again. If it works OK then there is probably a fault with that roll (or batch) of Fuji 160 that you are using. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terry_rory Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Only look for bits of old film if the 'problem' film has bits missing. Especially from near the sprocket holes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terry_rory Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 I assume that before you rewind any exposed film, you are flicking the rewind 'R' lever before rotating the film rewind crank? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terry_rory Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Make sure it is flicked over before loading next time. That is its normal state before loading a new film. It clicks back automatically when the new film is wound on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan_miller10 Posted June 19, 2006 Author Share Posted June 19, 2006 lol, yes. flicking it down and then thumbign the rewind crank round int he direction of the arrow [obviously] tbh, it's not a million miles from my other slrs in that respect, i have a superstition abotu one rewind being roughly equal to a frame on my other cameras so liek to count down the "safe" frames as i rewind. got maybe 3 this morning. when you say flicked on before loading - i assume you mean, check the rewind lever is aligned with the "r" when the back is opened? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terry_rory Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Just make sure the rewind 'R' lever automatically pops back into normal upright position when a new film is loaded and wound on. If it does not then that could be the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan_miller10 Posted June 19, 2006 Author Share Posted June 19, 2006 will do, thanks trevor and anthu. your patience is priceless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jongraham1 Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 As stated above, follow the instructions (FTFI) from Leica for loading film or else you will have problems. As not mentioned above, a jammed film advance is NOT a rare problem. I have had 2 M7s that had to go back for repair of this problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan_miller10 Posted June 19, 2006 Author Share Posted June 19, 2006 FTFI? As far as i am aware i have followed the instructions. I've also checked the various hints / tips etc that this board and RFF have directed newbs to. I've had a few films go through fine. I have also used a lot of practice time on cruddy films prior to even putting a test roll through. I'm nt talkign professional levels of trials but enough that i felt comfortable. Thanks for the tip on the possible repair and i seriously hope that it won;t need this. I realise that this will take practice but was asking if despite reading all the hints and tips... reading is never as good as doing. that is how you learn IMO. sorry if it sounds a bit defensive but i was trying to find out if i had made a newb mistake i hadn;t read about much or whether it may be indicative of a more serious problem. The nemeng link gives me a chunk of hope that its my newness to the camera rather than anything more serious (description of more likelihood of snagging on later m bodies due to a less chamfered guide rail.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan_miller10 Posted June 19, 2006 Author Share Posted June 19, 2006 FWIW, this is the subject for today from teh digi back up. if any come out ok from the stuck film i'll try to post one when i get it back.<div></div> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 That's why they put the door on the back of the camera. Put in the film, open the door, put the bottom on the camera, and watch what happens when you wind it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin jackson Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 "The purpose of the tulip spool is to bend the leader and pull the film" FWIW the "pulling of the film" is by the mostly by the sprockets not the tulip which is just a film slack takeup with very minimal pull. I had occasional problems with jamming after loading my new MP by following friends advice (they had M2, M3) about winding on and making sure sprockets were engaged etc. When I reverted to the books directions as Trevor and others say, I had no more problems, making sure you observe the rewind knob turning as the film is advanced. As long as the film tongue is at least partly in the tulip there shouldn't be a problem. The thing-a-ma-bob one the winding side of the bottom plate will push the film down so the sprockets will engage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terry_rory Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Before I ever owned a Leica M I feared this part of the camera operation (loading). My fear was based on numerous (very numerous) occasions when people expressed problems with Leica M loading. It almost seems like there were entire websites devoted to the subject. After buying my M6 I sat down with the instructions (and half a dozen expired Konica 100 films) to learn this operation. Suprise, it worked first time and every time subsequently. Did I pick up a very rare Leica (one where the loading works fine) or am I supernaturally accurate in my judgement of the amount of leader film to pull out? (I just 'do what it says on the tin' quite literally by following the diagram.) I am not making any point at Alan who is quite possibly suffering from a genuinely faulty rewind on his M6. My point is aimed at all those people I have read on websites asking advice on loading when they could 'ask' the instruction manual and the diagram on the machine. I cannot remember a time (in recent years) when there was not an online manual available or the ability to ring up Leica and get one sent for a minimal cost (certainly minimal compared to the cost of any repair caused by messing up badly). To be fair this is not totally exclusive to Leica M. I think one of the most popular types of thread on camera forums is the "how do I...." questions about basic operating procedures covered in the introductory sections of all camera manuals. And before you say "but what happens if there is no manual", MOST of those questions are from people who just opened brand new items and come to the internet first rather than read the documentation. Alan, I repeat this is not getting at you, just a general observation. It is probably not unique to cameras. In fact I have personally experienced the same problem with brand new hi-fi users who could not bring themselves to read the "Getting you started" sheet. Colleagues and friends (sometimes even technical people) who got in a right pickle despite having a sealed manual in a box outside the house awaiting the refuse collectors! Strange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Rowlett Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 I wind once before closing to avoid having a frame zero on the film. Backups? We don’t need no stinking ba #.’ _ , J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark_amos Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 I follow the instructions except I've found that the while the manual says that the "inner wheel on the baseplate will align the film leader for you", which does to me indicate clearly that the baseplate should be attached before winding, I don't find that it always aligns "for me" so I often put my pinky finger in the tulip to push the leader down enough to align and see that the film is on the gear and then close the back/presure plate to hold it on while I put the base plate on and then wind, and I fire blanks till I'm confident that the rewind lever is fully turning: almost always 2 or 3 shots, but frankly I've only shot a few hundred rolls and not thousands like some of you folks have. (I'm sure the manual must be right, but I like a bit of personal ritual.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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