Getting to the top of your game

[picturesque]

Marc--if I was being diplomatic, that's great :-), but I wasn't referencing anyone else's comments. My point was not that one should be content to provide expected images or be competent and be happy with the status quo, but that one's "photographic vision" as you call it, is already forged from the sum total of one's experience and thoughts--one's very being. Once one gets past the technical concerns (or even before), I believe the vision flows naturally and shows up in small ways as well as big ways (the overall vision). I guess I don't take myself very seriously that way, and I don't have any big goals of being at the top of the game--at least, not in the way that some of the "famous" wedding photographers cast large shadows over the rest of the industry.

 

I do think you have it or you don't, when it comes to a vision--you can't help but photograph the way you do. That's not to say that you can't consciously hone that vision, but pairing that with being at the top of the game--for me, these are two different things, the latter having more to do with business aspects such as marketing. Of course having to run a business is not an excuse for neglecting one's muse. Never meant to imply that. For me, these two things (vision + top of game) don't necessarily go hand in hand.

[35mmdelux]

i'd have to agree with Marc on this one vis-a-vis the masters of the universe, or king, whatnot.

 

I use photog to document things that interest me. Then, individuals began throwing money my way to take their wed fotos.

 

About the famous wed photogs, thats more marketing hype IMO. I may be a nobody photog but I am a card carrying art show/museum devotee and I've learned tremendously by observation, trial and error.

 

Frankly, I think Marc and the guru David Schilling have presented some of the best wed fotos I've ever seen. You too Nadine. Had I known you guys were around I would have hired you to shoot my wedding here at Newport Beach.

 

Anyhow, along Marc's thesis, I'd prefer to get my inspiration at one of the many world-class museums rather than the local swapmeet.

 

No, I'm not the next Picasso although we're both of Spanish extraction. My goal is simple: to frame it correctly and make the BG look ravishing and memorable. And to make a few bucks at it.

 

Bye - Paul

[fotografz]

Again, this is all so very personal.

 

I'm actually more in the camp that Nadine is ... not necessarily aspiring to cast a long

shadow in wedding photography as I have other fish to fry ... but I certainly wouldn't argue

with someone who did want to do that.

 

In fact, I'd encourage it for those who have dedicated themselves to this particular "game".

I'm a die-in-the-wool capitalist, and as satirical comedian Bill Maher recently said "What's

wrong with being a Capitalist", in answer to the incongruity of his "art" with how much

money he makes.

 

So, if you can please yourself with your creative travels, and make a boatload of money ...

why not ? The myth of the starving artist evaporated long ago.

 

And Paul's right, self-promotion is a big part of that. However, you do need something

behind the promotion, or you'll just be the Wizard of Oz behind the curtain.

[mikestryinagain]

Everyone in this thread makes very valid points, and it all comes from eachs perspective on who they are and where they are going. And I appreciate all the insight I have gotten thus far. I typed this question 4 times since saturday morning, wrestling with what was it I was trying to get at and how to say it, and deleted it each time. And then last night I finally stopped wrestling with it and hit the post button. It is somewhat ambiguous, both in wording and expected replies, as I wanted as much diversity, as many options and ideas, as I could get. And I wanted others to enjoy thinking about this thread and get something from it, because I have certainly posted my share of "how do I get my Metz to work" threads. I have not yet defined a path to where I want to go, if I can even define at this stage what it is I actually want to strive for. But its coming.

 

Matt, like you, I have little experience with weddings. But I wasnt looking for advice from experienced pros only. I was looking for insight from all - whats working for you from where you are and where you are headed.

 

Marc, thanks for putting your spin on this. I have read your personal statement of goals for weddings before, the "Romantic Photojournalizm" idea. Its a great idea, and in a few words pretty much conjurs up a picture in the mind of what that might be. I could see how thats easy for a bride/groom to grasp.

 

So thus far let me compile some important foundational step 1, build the train tracks, kind of stuff thats in this thread. Marc, you said -

 

"But where do you go once that's answered? Once you are fairly competent with your tools? One place is where Michael seems to want to head toward. It's not an uncommon longing.

 

The alternative to the obvious advice to practice, shoot more, play around, experiment, could be to wrench yourself out of the cloistered little world of wedding photography and see how other "creative people" reinvent themselves.

 

Running a business isn't an excuse. Every successful person I've ever met, some of them famous, all made a boatload of money as a by-product of their passion and dedication. They were the business they had to run.

 

The common element regardless of the discipline they were involved in was that they did indeed have a clear vision of what they were out to accomplish, and were very slow to compromise that vision, even when it was uncomfortable to do so."

 

These are great foundational statements! The platform to build the specifics of "where are you going and how are you going to get there".

 

Jammey, you have the same thing going, great advice, not to get lost along the way -

 

"The first step of growth, IMO, is identifying who you are, what you believe, and what motivates you. Following others will prevent you from identifying these things about yourself which will in turn prevent you from personal growth. There is no greater reward than appreciating yourself in light of what other people do differently."

 

- great statement!

 

Nadine, once again -

 

"My point was not that one should be content to provide expected images or be competent and be happy with the status quo, but that one's "photographic vision" as you call it, is already forged from the sum total of one's experience and thoughts--one's very being."

 

- great advice and philosophical insight!

 

See, to me, these are the things upon which all else will be built. Onto these tracks, comes a train that is going to a specific place with specific stops along the way. The technical aspects have to be defined and accomplished, the marketing to implement the vision needs to happen, the ability to deliver the final product to the client has to be accomplished. And there are many stops in between.

 

Robert, Bruce, Kari, Gerald, David, Emmett, Matt, Gary, Paul, Lucas, and anyone I might have missed, you have all added a perspective or valid point to what I was seeking in the original post. Some of the destinations along the way. All these things help me consider and define things that need to be accomplished or strive for. They are all important in the grand scheme of striving towards a specific goal.

 

Marc, the reference to the "compartmentalized, virgo mind", is somewhat of an inside joke around my house. But, being a virgo, I definitely have the trait of everything nice and lined up, evenly spaced, etc. As example, for me to tilt my camera as some PJ shooters do, would be a very concious learning curve to "see things differently".

[picturesque]

Your bit about tilting brings to mind the time I was training a young photographer for a studio. They wanted her to shoot in the PJ style, so I was trying to get her to shoot with all the "earmarks" of the then trendy style, which included tilting. Since this wasn't part of her natural "vision", she just couldn't do it. The images were either way too tilted or just barely (so they looked like mistakes). She never adopted that tilt. Her natural vision was centered on showing the relationships, which she did well because of a natural emphathy for her subjects. Kind of supports my "have it or don't" theory, I think.

[mikestryinagain]

Nadine, you are probably right. Maybe certain parts of vision, we either have or we dont. We work with what we got, and make the best of it. But I think there is a lot of lattitude in delivering something that is refreshing to the customer (and to ourselves). In amongst the formals, the table shots, the shots of people the bride/groom may never see again, is a story of the day. There is a lot that can be done with telling this story I think (at least thats my impression) regardless of how you hold the camera. Each person has the potential for a style, might not be the next guys style, but potential for a recognizable, saleable style none-the-less, that strikes a harmonious cord with a certain type of client. Its a matter of developing what you have in you to work with.

[melody1]

This discussion sounds like it could be a debate between my art school professors.

 

Some will tell you to carry a camera everywhere. Some will tell you to revise the way you see the world. Some will tell you to study your colleges, and take inspiration from them. Some will tell you to disregard the peers and study the established masters. Some will tell you to study no one, and draw from within.

 

Personally, I draw inspiration from great artists, great photojournalists, great businessmen (and women), great fine art photographers, teachers, and also, from my peers. When in class during a critique, I learn from those around me. Same with life. I learn from not only my experiences, but also from my peers. Being at the top of your game is such a multifacetted thing, that it could be assumed that one should never stop striving toward it.

 

I know that I am young and neive in ways, but there is much to learn in all stages of life from every person and experience.

[stacy]

I've been thinking for sometime about not offering flushmount albums- I hate them, but clients like them so I was hesitant. After reading this thread I decided to give them up (and posted it on my blog)- why shouldn't I have my photos displayed in the best possible way? And to me that means simple, beautiful, matted albums. If people don't book because of that someone else will...

 

Of course I'll still have to do them for anyone already booked who wants one...and then they'll be gone :)

 

So thanks everyone for the thread- very motivating!

[mikestryinagain]

Melody, if you keep thinking like that you will go far! It pays to watch, to listen, to learn, from where ever it may come. And when you are ready, you will have things to draw from as you define where your path lies, what your goals are, your mission. These are all things that go into creating a solid business plan. Defining your short and long range goals, and what has to happen to accomplish those.

 

Stacy, glad some of this inspired you to make certain decisions based on who you are, what you want to offer, and the quality of your finished product that supports your position. As Marc said, sometimes its who you choose not to do business with is as important as who you choose to do business with.

 

Thanks to all that spent valuable time today following this thread. You input is much appreciated!

[rtrace]

IMO, the answer to "how do I get there?", is one you need to figure out yourself. You are the only one who can define what "there" is. Nobody can do that for you. What you can learn and keep improving on with help of others is the techincal stuff - "shop talk". But once the technical stuff is out of the way, and it NEEDS to be before your work will stand out, you are really on your own. And it IS a lonely mission, as it should be IMO. And some advance and some don't. And I think a lot has to do with innate talent - just like in other domains. I know innate talent is sometimes dismissed by some that think hard work will do just as well, but I'm not of that opinion at all. To each his own though.

 

Look at classical musicians for instance. Up until a certain stage the good ones can play all the standard pieces pretty much the same - accurately, etc. But what separates the great ones from the average ones? Their innate talent to hear and be able to interpret a piece in a different and unique way that defines their style. Or looks at non-classical musicians. I'm sure Hendrix, Clapton, and some unknown kid from those days were able to play at a similar level up until a point. Then the former advanced and the latter fell into obscurity. Maybe he/she even practiced more than Hendrix or Clapton. Maybe not. It didn't matter.

 

Most successful artists that I know, don't ask for opinions in such matters. They know when they are "there". They DO struggle, but it's an internal struggle.

 

Bogdan

 

BTW, Ben's answer was the best as it relates to wedding photography per se. Some of the best I've seen come to it from other areas.

[david_schilling___chicago_]

Getting to the top thoughts...."Love, laugh, learn, teach, help others, and dance like no one is watching." I'll see you there :-)

[mikestryinagain]

Bogdan, these are all good points. Certainly, only I know what I want to be and if I even have an inkling of a chance of getting there. I have been playing the guitar for 35 years (and shooting with and SLR for 35 years), and I can tell you that I am no better a rock guitarist now than I was in high school. My technique is better, my tones are better, I pickup things easily, I can wow some of my kids friends, but I can in no way produce music the caliber of any recording artist.

 

So, as Nadine said, some have it in them, and some dont. There certainly are ways of visualizing in photography that I probably will never be able to do well, but then I know that and I think I can strenghen (quite a bit) that which I know I can do - the way I think and see, just not honed and polished yet because I am just now taking this seriously. My last round of serious photography was probably 25 years ago, its all been snapshots of kids growing up until 2 years ago.

 

Developing a path through a serious artistic endeavor will be different for me - its not what I have spent a lot of time concentrating on. While the path to travel may be lonely and my path alone, its helpful to hear what others have encountered in their own pursuits. I wasnt looking for answers, I was looking for insights. And really just as you wrote, as well as almost everyone else, the common insight is that beyond the technical mastery of tools and techniques, mastering an art is highly personal, interpretive, subjective, non-quantifiable.

 

What I got from this though, is a better understanding of a way for me to lay a plan for the future, with a better understanding of definable to-do's for my path, and a better understanding of things that might not be definable.

 

Thanks for posting, your insights are most welcomed!

[mikestryinagain]

David, thats a good way to sum it all up isnt it! Somedays I need to take a step back and remember those things. See you there, my friend!

[jefferson_todd_pals]

It's all in the marketing!

[anner]

The top of your game can mean so many different things (excuse me if I'm reiterating

anything, I didn't have time to read all of the above).

 

What do you consider the game? Is it the technical side of photography? The artistic side?

The competitive side? Or your target market?

Each of these requires a different focus and strategy. I know of photographers who are at

the top of their marketing and competition game, but aren't at the top of their technical or

creative game. Likewise I know of photographers who are at the top of their technical and

artistic game but suffer in the marketing and competition.

 

I don't think you get better by carrying a camera with you everywhere, or by taking more

pictures, or by experimenting in photoshop. I think it takes more mental work and

thinking time than anything else.

 

Where am I now?

 

Where do I want to be?

 

What are my strengths?

 

What are my weaknesses?

 

What makes my product different from my competition?

 

What makes me and/or my work, more valuable than someone else's?

 

How can I market that strength to set me apart and create a brand for myself?

 

I think that part of your business strategy has to include time to answer these questions,

and time to revisit these questions on a regular basis in order to keep challenging yourself

to be at the top of your game... whatever you consider that to be.

[mikestryinagain]

Anne, thanks for your thoughts on this! I think in my original post I summed it up as "vision, efficiency, and ability" as demonstrated by Mike in his Wedding Style cover shoot. I guess maybe subconsciously I was thinking the marketing was a given (otherwise why would he be shooting a cover for Grace Ormond) and ignored that aspect when I posted. I think all of your points are very valid, and most were touched on somewhere throughout the thread. I do somewhat disagree with your statement about shooting all the time not making you a better photographer. One the technical options of the cameras today is mind-boggling, so many options. There is no other way to be proficient with the tools other than to continuosly use them, learn them like the back of your hand, understand what option to use when. I also think that composition is strengthened when you are constantly shooting, honing your vision, exploring new avenues from an image perspective. Other than that, I totally agree with you that self-analysis, market analysis, concrete steps to get to where you want to be are a must. Thanks for taking time to respond! Much appreciated!