Pro photogs have home court advantage

[gmahler5th]

While some of you have remarked how unfortunate it is that newcomers

in the industry are bring down prices and qulaity, and taking away

business from seasoned professionals, one advantage that you (as a

seasons pro photog) can use is that expertise and talent in post

processing. I have certainly learned this the hard way. After

shooting a 8 or so weddings, I feel pretty confident with my cameras

and the gear that I bring to a wedding. But what happens after the

wedding? Unless the bride/groom will not be ordering reprints or

creating an album, the inexperienced photographer will be hard

pressed to deliver anything more than a bunch of proof prints without

paying through the nose for lab services. And even then, you can

only outsource so much of your project before you end up loosing

money on the whole deal. After many frustrating experiences trying

to fulfill print orders, I have to admit that you guys who have been

doing this for years have players court advantage, and you should

really emphasize this fact when talking to prospective brides and

grooms, or for marketing on your Website. I don't really plan to

actively market and selling my wedding photography services any

longer, so I can share this with you now :-)

 

At the very least, I am pulling through with fulfilling my orders,

albeit with a lot of frustration in color corrections and editing in

Photoshop. I am posting one here that I thought was pretty neat for

your viewing pleasure, and critique, whichever you want. :-)<div></div>

[darren]

Things like colour correction, finding a suitable printing lab and profiling to their output, etc are basically one-time problems. Once you've solved them and got your workflow set up, you shouldn't have to worry about them again unless something changes.

 

While 'learning Photoshop' could be a lifetime pursuit, it shouldn't take too long until you're competent enough to crop, rotate, adjust contrast and exposure, and sharpen for output.

 

What part of this stuff is giving you trouble? There are some real experts here that could help you out.

 

Nice photo, by the way!

[bruce_rubenstein]

I have less problems getting good prints from film by moving the images into the digital domain, via a film scanner, and then having them printed by on line companies.

 

You should be able to make money on print and album orders and not lose it. If you're losing money then your pricing is bad. I think that the biggest difference betweens "old pros" and the "new kids" is that the people who make money know how to run a business.

[ben_rubinstein___mancheste]

The post processing is fine apart from the bloody white balance, I hate it! I shoot RAW and would say that of the tweaking of the RAW files in ACR, 80% of the time is getting the white balance right. The reason is that the white balance changes, sometimes drastically with underexposure. I underexpose by a stop or so to hold the highlights so the cameras auto white balance is almost always off. For the formals I can shoot a custom white balance, but then the exposure never changes, get one right and you have the rest. It's the walking around candid/PJ style stuff that need a different WB for each shot to balance the flash/ambient and get the facial tones right (anyone else miss fuji's 4th layer?).

[russ_butner___portland__or]

Ben

 

I'm still enjoying the benefits of Fuji's 4th layer :-)

 

Russ

[lukas_kisiel]

Steven, I agree that post-processing, creating albums and making custom print reorders takes time and there is a learning curve. But I believe this is where you deliver the ultimate value to the customer. Lots of people can shoot weddings and burn CDs and even post photos online. It takes experience, creativity and time to create beautiful memories in forms of albums or custom prints. That is why I am not worried about low wedding prices these days. I believe there are a lot more people these days that actually can afford a photographer because of the lower prices. At the same time, you can always find people who are willing to pay more for quality.

[phil vaughan - yorkshire u]

I'd agree that this is more an object lesson to anyone who thinks they can do it cheap. Before you start out, work out what the REAL cost is. It is naive to assume that all the pro's out there are skimming massive profits just because they charge 4 times as much a novice. The price includes the following:

 

a reasonable assumption of ACTUAL time required, including interviews and post processing; quality prints, albums etc; overheads including insurance and depreciation.

[Spearhead]

<i>ACR, 80% of the time is getting the white balance right.</i><p>

 

Do you use the eyedropper in ACR? I find it gives the right result about 99% of the time.

[jmichaelc]

I think it also shows that those who are in this buisness for the money are doomed for disappointment. Many do wedding photography for a higher purpose, it's the driving force within us to capture something special and a passion that is unexplainable. If it came down to it, i can honestly say that i would like to be a part of this experience even if no money was to be made at all. I feel that we are fourtanate to have a paying return for something that fulfills this passion within us. The question is, do you have that feeling within you? If so, i would suggest being choicier with your clients and choose those who understands your passion as a wedding photographer and who understands the price it takes for them to receive the final product. I have met with all my potential clients and thouroughly discussed "Why i do it". Most customers walk away with an excitement and confidence that we are going to deliver for them - because we love it so much. For this, they are willing to pay w/ no questions. Hang in there steven, i think you do good work and will eventually get things straigntened out. :)

[ben_rubinstein___mancheste]

"Do you use the eyedropper in ACR? I find it gives the right result about 99% of the time."

 

Yup, it gets me in the ballpark but is often way off. It also makes a big difference how white the collar or whatever is, whether it is in shade or has been caught by the flash and what the exposure was.

 

Keep in mind that a properly corrected scene where the WB is technically exact may look awful on the skin tones unless the lighting is all one colour. A mixed scene can play havoc, especially one with mixed ambient and flash. Even with completely controlled lighting a pale person will look really bad on screen (flat/uninteresting) if the exact WB is used. To get it right you have to balance the WB, saturation, shadows and contrast.

[ben_rubinstein___mancheste]

"Do you use the eyedropper in ACR? I find it gives the right result about 99% of the time."

 

Yup, it gets me in the ballpark but is often way off. It also makes a big difference how white the collar, or whatever is, whether it is in shade or has been caught by the flash and what the exposure was.

 

Keep in mind that a properly corrected scene where the WB is technically exact may look awful on the skin tones unless the lighting is all one colour. A mixed scene can play havoc, especially one with mixed ambient and flash. Even with completely controlled lighting a pale person will look really bad on screen (flat/uninteresting) if the exact WB is used. To get it right you have to balance the WB, saturation, shadows and contrast.

[twmeyer]

<i>"ACR, 80% of the time is getting the white balance right."</i><p>

<b>"Do you use the eyedropper in ACR? I find it gives the right result about 99% of the time."</b><p>I use the <a href="http://www.rawworkflow.com/products/whibal/index.html">WhiBal</a>. It gives two shades of grey (one lighter than a grey card) two blacks (matte and glossy) and white. If you pop it in a frame when you change situations (a different room, go out side, or whenever you notice a change in color/light), it will give you several neutral points to (at least) <i>start</i> from in your conversions. There's a small one that fits in your pocket. I'll sometimes lay it on a table, or hold it out at arms length in a shot just to give me a visual touchstone for RAW conversions. It works pretty well, mostly because of the tonal range it offers in one easy to fan out chipset. <p>And after the RAW conversions, you can put four color checkers on it and balance to the 2 greys, white, and black color neutrals using levels and curves. <p>It's also extremely useful in studio, or any controlled lighting situation... <i<much</i> better than a grey card... t

[t._duane_jones]

Jeff and all:

 

Could you please post the basic operations necessary to use the eyedropper to set the WB in ACR? I would appreciate it.

 

Thanks,Duane

[ben_rubinstein___mancheste]

Tom, my experience is that a picture take with flash (of a white balance card) close up will have a different WB than one taken from 3-4 metres away. That's why when walking around/reception type shooting, a white balance reading is only a starting point. Have you found this or once you get it right, it's right for that room whatever the distance? I also shoot a lot of bounce which doesn't help the situation!

[todd frederick]

Steven,

 

I'm not sure what your question is.

 

I think it has something related to selling post-wedding albums and prints and our frustration with the resistance of couple who don't want those services.

 

I worked with a studio for a time and they had a totally seperate department for album and enlargement creations.

 

A one person wedding photographer has a hard time doing that.

 

Why not try to target clients who want just your photographic services, a nice proof album, and the negatives or CDs. You can get between $1,000 to $1,500 for that. Maybe less since your new to this, but, at the least, $800 plus.

 

There is a market for this wedding photography niche. Why not give it a try?

 

There are many wonderful couples out there who truly don't have a lot of money and you could give them a break and get some experience at the same time. These couples would not book a $3,000 photographer anyway, so why not you?

 

Think about it.

[Spearhead]

<i>Could you please post the basic operations necessary to use the eyedropper to set the WB in ACR?</i><p>

 

There's an eyedropper in the upper left corner of the window for ACR. Take the eyedropper and click on a spot you think should be white. If that doesn't give you exactly what you want, click on another spot that is white. The need to adjust from there is usually very, very small.<p>

 

I didn't know about this until I noticed a reference from Marc Williams last year about it.

[twmeyer]

"<i>Have you found this or once you get it right, it's right for that room whatever the distance?</i>"... no, but I'm usually more interested in a proper white balance on the skin tone of my subjects, who are (in this situation) lit by my strobe. I try to gel the stobe to be just slightly cooler than the tungsten lit room I'm working in, and white balance to that filtered strobe (usually 1/2 to 3/4 CTO). I've found that trying to match my strobe's color temp to a room is gel hell, and ruins that warm ambiant background that is natural to us industrialized country folk, as well as those venues lit by tiki torch, etc. As you well know, every tungsten lamp is different, and furthermore, they all seem to have have rheostats :^) So the Whibal works for me... t<div></div>

[gmahler5th]

Hi Todd, not really a question but an observation. I'm no longer actively marketing my wedding photog services, but if I were, I would continue to press on and upward with offering fine art prints and enlargements, and outsource albums and photo books. I'm not about to waste my time on an $800 wedding unless if is for a very close (and poor) friend or relative.

 

Phil, pros are not "skimming massive profits" but the truth is that experienced professionals always demand a fair market value commensurate with their level of experience and talent. I haven't met a pro photog yet who runs his business as a not-for-profit.

 

Darren, the part that is giving me trouble is simply I lack the confidence in making good judgement in color renditions (even on my wonderful 22" lacie electron blueIV) which is simply due to lack of experience. I have learned a lot from Mark W. in using color controls and balances, but I know just enough to be dangerous. I am going to stop doing weddings for awhile while I spend time on my own photo projects, get fully up to speed on color management in Photoshop, and become a master at printing using my own home printer and in working with and using the labs various print services. I'd like to create a gallery of my own work for my enjoyment for once. I've been working on photog projects for others for the past 3 years, and I'm ready for a break.

 

I'm not leaving the forum, though! I would miss reading Al's stories, gleaning wisdom from his advice, and hearing of his encounters with nice cheerleaders at the local Starbucks in Miami >8-)

[think27]

Jammey Church - Well said! I'm totally with you..

[gaetano catelli]

i guess this is my cue to out myself as an aspiring wedding photographer. like Jammey and Mary, i want to to do wedding photography primarily because of my passion for photographing the subject matter. to cast it in prosaic terms, it's sort of like being a 'stealth fashion photographer' -- on the happiest day of the model's life!